This doesn't sound good (for Servis and Navarro)

[Appy]

Originally Posted by pandy

I don't trust Baffert, I think his results are too good to be true, plus he has had enough things happen in his career that raise suspicion. If Maximum Security races again, and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't, he'll have to race clean and it's hard to imagine that he'll run anywhere near as well as he has.

I agree Max would probably be unable to produce so consistent high level success. But it would not surprise me to see him continue to perform well. I'm one of those who believes drugs cannot make a horse run faster than he can.

I have thoroughbreds and appaloosa together here at home and enjoy watching them out in the pastures at leisure. They run a lot, just because they like to. I know which one has the most brilliant speed and I know which one has the highest cruising speed, and I know which one has the most endurance, but I can't predict for sure which one will get back to the barn first. It varies from one time to the next. Every now and then the mare that is by far the slowest of the bunch get's back in the lead. Blows my mind. Not a one of them has ever been introduced to any drugs other than their annuals. The Tbreds have all raced at the track, but it is surprising how often one of my Appies wins the run.
Horses are horses.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Appy

I agree Max would probably be unable to produce so consistent high level success. But it would not surprise me to see him continue to perform well. I'm one of those who believes drugs cannot make a horse run faster than he can.

.

Epogen would, no?

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by acorn54

its not only hong kong, austrailia, ireland, england to name a few other countries that are above board.
the "united states is too big, alibi", grows old. if you seek and expect excellence that is what you will get most times. if you just throw up your hands in despair, you become second rate in every thing. my two cents

Seek and expect excellence.

Now there's a novel concept.

When is the last time horseplayers could point to a state regulatory body and think excellence?




-jp

.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

One example that makes me not trust Baffert is Arrogate. That career looks very suspicious.

You would need to study horses that move on from baffert or are taken over buy baffert, neither of which happen much.

I am dubious of all successful trainers.

[Appy]

I don't pay enough attention to drugs to even know what Epogen is, but my answer would be no. It might make him run faster and longer than he normally WOULD, but I don't believe it would make him run faster than he COULD.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by acorn54

its not only hong kong, austrailia, ireland, england to name a few other countries that are above board.

this is non sense.

wasnt it the Godolphin trainer that got popped a ways back, and yet he is still training for them after getting sacked for a time.

they may not be as brazen, there are rules being broken in those countries. Exception may be hong kong where the model is completely different.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

You would need to study horses that move on from baffert or are taken over buy baffert, neither of which happen much.

I am dubious of all successful trainers.

The guy who owned Dortmund took all his horses away from Baffert a few years ago. Many ran worse for Art Sherman and Simon Callaghan.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

Maximum Security moved to Baffert.

I feel for the Wests, although you can't say it wasn't an exciting ride. You never want something like this to happen, and he's got to be shocked and disappointed. Baffert is a hall of famer, and I'm sure that 'Max' will be in good hands.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Appy

I don't pay enough attention to drugs to even know what Epogen is, but my answer would be no. It might make him run faster and longer than he normally WOULD, but I don't believe it would make him run faster than he COULD.

Horses get tired, right? Epogen addresses that issue. Therefore, they tire less quickly and can effectively "run faster."

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by acorn54

i try to refrain from american races and focus on the flats in england and hong kong. personally it bothers my conscious to be involved in an american sport that turns a blind eye to animal cruelty.

Exactly this.

Many people do not really see themselves as *enablers*.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by Appy

I agree Max would probably be unable to produce so consistent high level success. But it would not surprise me to see him continue to perform well. I'm one of those who believes drugs cannot make a horse run faster than he can.

I have thoroughbreds and appaloosa together here at home and enjoy watching them out in the pastures at leisure. They run a lot, just because they like to. I know which one has the most brilliant speed and I know which one has the highest cruising speed, and I know which one has the most endurance, but I can't predict for sure which one will get back to the barn first. It varies from one time to the next. Every now and then the mare that is by far the slowest of the bunch get's back in the lead. Blows my mind. Not a one of them has ever been introduced to any drugs other than their annuals. The Tbreds have all raced at the track, but it is surprising how often one of my Appies wins the run.
Horses are horses.

Drugs do make horses run faster because, for one, the drug can give a horse more stamina. It can also mask pain. Yes, if a horse can go :21.2 to the quarter and :44.1 to the half it should be able to do that with or without drugs. But, where the drug helps is the last quarter. If you look at Maximum Security, he can go fast on or near the lead, then he had a lot of stamina late.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by pandy

Drugs do make horses run faster because, for one, the drug can give a horse more stamina. It can also mask pain. Yes, if a horse can go :21.2 to the quarter and :44.1 to the half it should be able to do that with or without drugs. But, where the drug helps is the last quarter. If you look at Maximum Security, he can go fast on or near the lead, then he had a lot of stamina late.

yep


thats why juicers prefer speed types





old news, at least to me

[Irishfever]

Originally Posted by pandy

Drugs do make horses run faster because, for one, the drug can give a horse more stamina. It can also mask pain. Yes, if a horse can go :21.2 to the quarter and :44.1 to the half it should be able to do that with or without drugs. But, where the drug helps is the last quarter. If you look at Maximum Security, he can go fast on or near the lead, then he had a lot of stamina late.

Also help with extreme speed to get position. Ever notice how Navarro horses are ridden hard or Chris Oakes horses are driven extremely tuff, grab the front at all costs.

In the past guys guys gave a couple ccs of ACTH in the jugular to stimulate an adrenal dump. But like a battery its effect wears off it you keep doing it. Other "hotshots" became available and newer exotic stuff comes along.

So now you have a mixture of painkillers, bronchiodialators and blood builders and growth factors( for muscle repair). Throw in a stimulant and you get a horse than controls races, doesn't tire easily and can feel no pain.

Yes, most jurisdictions have known whats going on. They turn a blind eye bc they don't know how to handle it adequately. They hide behind the mantra " well we've conducted 100000 tests and .0000001 came back positive. (true story as I called the commission myself to report things)

Many tracks have torn down barns and have switch to ship-in barns only. That way they can be absolved from responsibility, how could we know what they are doing attitude which is why Hong Kong is so successful. There is intense scrutiny, veterinary records logged, who can administer meds etc.

In Ontario, I know they swept two major drug fiascos under the table primarily because it involved racing "royalty" and they didn't want to tarnish the sports image.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

The guy who owned Dortmund took all his horses away from Baffert a few years ago. Many ran worse for Art Sherman and Simon Callaghan.

Dortmund's form fell off with Baffert. Not a good example.

I dont remember all of them, some of them did win if I recall.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Dortmund's form fell off with Baffert. Not a good example.

I dont remember all of them, some of them did win if I recall.

I didn't say Dortmund's form fell. That's just how I remembered the owner. Kaleem Shah was his name, I think? Candy striped silks, I remember.

A bunch of his other horses started losing. I kept track for awhile.