Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Sorry, but the "function" of your memory, within the mind, has retrieved something from the past. YOU remain in the present. The nature of man, as union of matter/spirit we would state, explains what he is capable of--thinking about the past while firmly planted, e.g. The alternatives are to be a disembodied spirit--I hope you're not there yet--or an eliminative materialist ("Alex Rosenberg, call your office"), where your mental journeys, and everything else that can't be quantified, is an illusion.

When we recall the past, physically we remain in the present; but mentally we're back in past. Or in the chess master illustration, mentally even in the future. As image bears of God, albeit fallen, depraved, corrupt and sinful as we are, we possess in a limited sense the powers of God. I have to think that Christians when they enter into the, visible eternal kingdom in our redeemed bodies, those powers will be unharnessed and fully realized.

The Trinity analogy is an anthropomorphic metaphor, sanctioned by Christ and used by Paul, et.al., to enable us to retain the sense of three Persons possessing one nature. The theological word is "appropriation" to designate "functions" for our benefit. There is no "function" of the Divine Persons whereby their starting times are staggered. Each wholly possesses the Divine Nature in their Person. Of course Christ alone is "Redeemer" in the sense of his human nature.

Pure heretical nonsense! The entire counsel of God teaches a divine order within the Godhead, which does not imply inequality . Another example: The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son;, and the Spirit revealed the NT scriptures to the apostles just as he heard from the Son. Even Jesus never taught anything except what he heard from the Father, etc.

I would encourage you to put down "triunity"--finding "3" in the natural world--and pick up Frank Sheed (Theology and Sanity) for a discussion of the inner life of the Trinity and how it relates to God's external operations.

Sure. I'll buy that book as soon as your read "Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul. Deal?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I asked one in #10250.

Good, why don't you go answer it?

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

When we recall the past, physically we remain in the present; but mentally we're back in past. Or in the chess master illustration, mentally even in the future. As image bears of God, albeit fallen, depraved, corrupt and sinful as we are, we possess in a limited sense the powers of God. I have to think that Christians when they enter into the, visible eternal kingdom in our redeemed bodies, those powers will be unharnessed and fully realized.



Pure heretical nonsense! The entire counsel of God teaches a divine order within the Godhead, which does not imply inequality . Another example: The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son;, and the Spirit revealed the NT scriptures to the apostles just as he heard from the Son. Even Jesus never taught anything except what he heard from the Father, etc.



Sure. I'll buy that book as soon as your read "Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul. Deal?

Your first paragraph again fails to distinguish between those parts (brain, mind, etc.) that compose the whole man and the nature of man in his essence. If you have visited the past, as grounds for triunity, you've become disembodied.

Any understanding of the Trinity that does not assert each Person as fully possessing the divine nature, therefore of the same act and will, is reductive and introduces difference. The divine Names only suggest the relational aspect of the Trinity. "Father" because the Father, in one act of infinite, eternal existence, knows himself ("generates" the thought of himself, the "Word", since we think in words). The Father loves (Spirit) the thought/Word/Son of himself. No dependency, no separate functions, but relational conceptions. It's very difficult to escape our experience of time, space, change, and the limits of language describing the ineffable.

"The Holy Spirit "proceeds" in some sort of time frame or sequence? Or rather in one act of eternal existence, the whole (and therefore God) expression of the eternal love between Father and Son? There was never a "time" where the Holy Spirit hasn't wholly possessed the divine nature eternally. The Spirit is appropriated as inspiring scripture because the gift of revelation is an act of "love" (Spirit) on the Trinity's part, not an internal "generation" (Father) or "knowledge" (Father's thought of himself--Son).

"What he heard from the Father...". In his divine nature, Jesus wholly possessed what that nature enabled him to do--one in being with the Father and Spirit. "The Father and I are one." His human nature allowed him to experience the capacity of what human nature allows. Experiential, temporal knowledge, progress in knowledge, etc. (The Father is greater than I.")

You don't always agree with Dr. Sproul. I'm not sure how Sproul would have received "triunity". I've searched Reformed sites for "inner life of the Trinity", but at least in my experience have only seen peripheral references to "eternal, Father-Son-Spirit", etc. Nothing regarding the inner dynamic. One can hardly approach the ineffable, but Somebody that reveals himself wants to be known more deeply. We can gain a little light.

My central difficulty with Sproul is/was his dedication to imputed grace. If Paul was in communion with the Reformed position, I don't know how he could bear to state, "God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts crying, "Abba! Father!"(Gal 4:6).

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Good, why don't you go answer it?

Sure. The question was "So how do we know reality?"

The answer is "reality is the genuine product of observation, or of the consequence of observation." -- Jean-Baptiste Lamarck

[hcap]

Originally Posted by bnoxcar

When we recall the past, physically we remain in the present; but mentally we're back in past. Or in the chess master illustration, mentally even in the future. As image bears of God, albeit fallen, depraved, corrupt and sinful as we are, we possess in a limited sense the powers of God. I have to think that Christians when they enter into the, visible eternal kingdom in our redeemed bodies, those powers will be unharnessed and fully realized.

There is a major difference in understanding "god, the spirit and heaven" and the signposts pointing to those items expressed in words. Images and words are poor substitutes for what those words and images really are, and experiencing them with more than those shorthand devices, useful in leading there.

We can imagine being in the past or the future but that is like fooling around only on the fringes of those tenses.

It is hard enough being here now!

Imagining images of yesterday or tomorrow are not being in yesterday or tomorrow. A very far cry from the reality of actually going back, or forward in time.

A chess master may plan, strategize, and imagine a great many future outcomes, but just like picking horses, as you said yourself, "past performances are no guarantee of future success".

But I will grant you one thing, the chess master may affect the future outcome, but neither he or his opponent can change their opening moves once AFTER they have been played. In Zen and other eastern teachings a teacher is recommended to be on hand to help guide to student between imaginary gains and real gains. Imagination without proper "regulation" can be adverse. In many religions it is necessary to "witness" what is happening as objectively as possible, and a guide is useful in helping uncover how the ego tricks us.

When this first began, I asked for a practical TESTABLE example of effect before cause in human events. None of what you propose is testable

As I said once again you are confusing the map for the territory. A bunch of maps outlining the past or future, no matter how accurately drawn and conceived, is not the territory.

[hcap]

Box, I am afraid you have totally lost your common sense. First thinking the future precedes the present and present precedes the past, and now doing further mental somersaults back fitting imagination as time travel and as an example of effect coming before its cause(s).

Whether your latest intellectual wrong turn had to do with my challenge to your "direction" of time or not, you are building very frail set of towers ready to collapse under it's own weight tottering on an underlying shoddy twisted foundations

Be very careful.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

There is a major difference in understanding "god, the spirit and heaven" and the signposts pointing to those items expressed in words. Images and words are poor substitutes for what those words and images really are, and experiencing them with more than those shorthand devices, useful in leading there.

We can imagine being in the past or the future but that is like fooling around only on the fringes of those tenses.

It is hard enough being here now!

Imagining images of yesterday or tomorrow are not being in yesterday or tomorrow. A very far cry from the reality of actually going back, or forward in time.

A chess master may plan, strategize, and imagine a great many future outcomes, but just like picking horses, as you said yourself, "past performances are no guarantee of future success".

But I will grant you one thing, the chess master may affect the future outcome, but neither he or his opponent can change their opening moves once AFTER they have been played. In Zen and other eastern teachings a teacher is recommended to be on hand to help guide to student between imaginary gains and real gains. Imagination without proper "regulation" can be adverse. In many religions it is necessary to "witness" what is happening as objectively as possible, and a guide is useful in helping uncover how the ego tricks us.

When this first began, I asked for a practical TESTABLE example of effect before cause in human events. None of what you propose is testable

As I said once again you are confusing the map for the territory. A bunch of maps outlining the past or future, no matter how accurately drawn and conceived, is not the territory.

Since you say that my examples of effects preceding causes is not testable, this only proves that you have never engaged in mental activity. And this isn't surprising since you have denied there is such a thing in the human experience.

If effects never precede causes on the intellect, we wouldn't have the technology we have today. The effect, the final cause, the goal, the end, the puprose the teleology of a thing is always in the mind long before a thing itself is brought into existence in the physical world through the material, formal and efficient causes.

But I'm glad that you agree that time can be used only ONCE and that neither the chess master or his opponent can physically go back and undo previous moves that were made when the past WAS the present! But in your insane version of the universe, either of them should be able to do just that since you have the Past passing through the Present to be used all over again.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Since you say that my examples of effects preceding causes is not testable, this only proves that you have never engaged in mental activity. And this isn't surprising since you have denied there is such a thing in the human experience.

If effects never precede causes on the intellect, we wouldn't have the technology we have today. The effect, the final cause, the goal, the end, the puprose the teleology of a thing is always in the mind long before a thing itself is brought into existence in the physical world through the material, formal and efficient causes.

Sorry box, you are too far gone for me to have a serious conversation with.

I give up you win.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Your first paragraph again fails to distinguish between those parts (brain, mind, etc.) that compose the whole man and the nature of man in his essence. If you have visited the past, as grounds for triunity, you've become disembodied.

Of course, I have distinguished "between those parts". The focus of our discussion is on the human mind. The mind can do things that the body cannot. In fact, it's our bodies that greatly limit our potential. It appears to me you don't want to recognize that just as our physical body parts have different functions (a biblical truth), the mind also functions very differently from the body. Some people can learn an entire language in mere days. Some people can speed read and retain everything they read. Some people have photographic memories, etc., etc. Even great physical feats are more about mind-power (mind over matter) than physical strength or prowess.

Even at the Tower of Bable God was "impressed" with and mused over the ingenuity of man by thinking that nothing will be impossible for men (Gen 11:6). And this moved God to thwart man's godless purposes by confusing the tongues of men and scattering mankind across the earth.

Any understanding of the Trinity that does not assert each Person as fully possessing the divine nature, therefore of the same act and will, is reductive and introduces difference.

Divine Order within the Godhead does not diminish the divine nature in any of the Three Persons. As stated yesterday, divine order does not imply inequality. That is a straw man objection.

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question about the return of Jesus Christ. Is His return in the world's future or in the world's past? Should we be looking forward to the future or back to the past for the Parousia?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Sorry box, you are too far gone for me to have a serious conversation with.

I give up you win.

Gee thanks for stating the obvious.

Now we can move on to the ever-moving Present, which is your most recent revelation about the flow of time.

I'm curious: Does the Present flow through the Past or the Future? If the former, then you have Present preceding the Past. (Oh, Horror of Horrors!) But if the latter, then you have the Present preceding the Future.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by hcap

Sorry box, you are too far gone for me to have a serious conversation with.

I give up you win.

I guess it is time for Religion III.

I don't think this season's episodes were not quite up to the standards of Religion I.

Whoops! Gotta go. I just saw either the past fly by on the way to the future or the future shuttling back to the past.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

I guess it is time for Religion III.

I don't think this season's episodes were not quite up to the standards of Religion I.

It's the quality of contestants. We need a fresh group in here. Wanna volunteer as a recruiter?

Whoops! Gotta go. I just saw either the past fly by on the way to the future or the future shuttling back to the past.

At least you didn't see the Present flying by in either direction.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Since you say that my examples of effects preceding causes is not testable, this only proves that you have never engaged in mental activity. And this isn't surprising since you have denied there is such a thing in the human experience.

If effects never precede causes on the intellect, we wouldn't have the technology we have today. The effect, the final cause, the goal, the end, the puprose the teleology of a thing is always in the mind long before a thing itself is brought into existence in the physical world through the material, formal and efficient causes.
:

You are imagining what is like to develop technology. Create a computer program. You continue to confuse the "map" you have conjured up, imagining what it is like to deal with real work in the real world.

Previously I asked you if you ever built anything, especially in the commercial world where one of the effects of doing one's work successfully is the continuation of that full time employment.

I spent 30 years doing that. Also have two US patents. I am familiar first hand developing technology, fabricating various devices, custom lab work, and writing horse racing programs.

I do not recall traveling into the future or the past, or any "teleology" I was involved with, inducing its effects before that "cause" that we humans create being oh so teleological.

Please drop gazing at your "maps" and experience that sort of thing directly before you tell us how humans should create in reality, not in your spinning mind.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

I guess it is time for Religion III.

I don't think this season's episodes were not quite up to the standards of Religion I.

Whoops! Gotta go. I just saw either the past fly by on the way to the future or the future shuttling back to the past.

Ask box for directions to which way it "shuttled"

Religion II is mostly a rerun of Religion I.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are imagining what is like to develop technology. Create a computer program. You continue to confuse the "map" you have conjured up, imagining what it is like to deal with real work in the real world.

Previously I asked you if you ever built anything, especially in the commercial world where one of the effects of doing one's work successfully is the continuation of that full time employment.

I spent 30 years doing that. Also have two US patents. I am familiar first hand developing technology, fabricating various devices, custom lab work, and writing horse racing programs.

I do not recall traveling into the future or the past, or any "teleology" I was involved with, inducing its effects before that "cause" that we humans create being oh so teleological.

Please drop gazing at your "maps" and experience that sort of thing directly before you tell us how humans should create in reality, not in your spinning mind.

I guess you never had any ideas in life, hey? You never had the "end game" of something mapped out inside your head long before you physically implemented it? Never?

Oh wait...why am I asking you this? The only activities humans engage in is physical in nature.