Religion III

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Light

You were replying to TJ's comment of starving children in Africa.

I wouldn't blame God for the these woes as much as those who are greedy and heartless in power and prevent aid to people in need.

I feel God will perform miracles for things that are beyond our control. But things like this are within our control, and it's our job as human beings to try to help each other.

I am not blaming God. There is no God.

I am mocking those who would believe in a hypocritical God that allows the suffering and death of innocent children.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Now, you're catching on. If only you had known me BEFORE....you would love me now.

Also, I know that God superattended the canonicity process because of the doctrine of Total Depravity. Read Job 15 again.

I know that you are a cat lover...so that means to me that you can't be as bad as you've allowed yourself to appear here. But I wince when I see you calling yourself a "saved soul", because you are clearly just a "work-in-progress"...as we all must forever remain. When a believer convinces himself that he has been "saved"...that's when the ground starts crumbling beneath his feet, IMO. I would suggest that you pick up one of the Maurice Nicoll books that Hcap keeps referring to here. It will present to you a different view of Christianity than the "total Depravity" theory that you have so heartily embraced. And, who knows...it might even resonate with you. After all...what have you got to lose?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

I am not blaming God. There is no God.

I am mocking those who would believe in a hypocritical God that allows the suffering and death of innocent children.

It would certainly seem that an "all-powerful", "ever-loving" God would lend a helping hand to the most helpless among us...if he really exists, that is. The mystery of mysteries...IMO.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It would certainly seem that an "all-powerful", "ever-loving" God would lend a helping hand to the most helpless among us...if he really exists, that is. The mystery of mysteries...IMO.

It’s no mystery to me.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Mr. Light just got done telling us what a terrible experience he had going though his own personal hell. Why would anyone think that hell can't be experienced on a grander scale, such as starving children wherever they are? Perhaps God is manifesting to us both his kindness and severity -- the latter because the world is fallen -- and the former at times to show that he stands to forgive.

Yes...we've all gone through our own private hells. But we've also all seen those heartbreaking St. Jude Hospital TV commercials...where those sweet little kids are asking for donations in order to be allowed to battle against an insidious disease which no child should ever have to deal with. And we've also all seen those hungry little kids...who try to stave off starvation for one more day...while knowing that there are other people out there who throw good food in the garbage. And if these tragedies don't disturb us as we sleep at night with our bible underneath our pillow...then we are hardly the human beings that we may think we are.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...we've all gone through our own private hells. But we've also all seen those heartbreaking St. Jude Hospital TV commercials...where those sweet little kids are asking for donations in order to be allowed to battle against an insidious disease which no child should ever have to deal with. And we've also all seen those hungry little kids...who try to stave off starvation for one more day...while knowing that there are other people out there who throw good food in the garbage. And if these tragedies don't disturb us as we sleep at night with our bible underneath our pillow...then we are hardly the human beings that we may think we are.

I understand what you're saying and agree completely. But what about other kinds of hells, as well? Natural disasters wherein maybe 100's or even 1,000's of "innocent" people are injured or killed come immediately to mind. Or mass murders at the hands of terrorists. Or persecutions of people of faith just because they believe differently than some other group. The world is filled with evil. But sadly, most of us don't think of these "hells" in those terms.

I have often thought this world offers a foretaste of both heaven and hell, since there is also much beauty and good in the world, thankfully. If it weren't for God's common grace, this planet would be unbearable to live in.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

2,000 years before the development of calculus, the Greek mathematician Archimedes worked out a simple formula for the volume of a sphere ...

There is some evidence that Archimedes discovered calculus.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I know that you are a cat lover...so that means to me that you can't be as bad as you've allowed yourself to appear here. But I wince when I see you calling yourself a "saved soul", because you are clearly just a "work-in-progress"...as we all must forever remain. When a believer convinces himself that he has been "saved"...that's when the ground starts crumbling beneath his feet, IMO. I would suggest that you pick up one of the Maurice Nicoll books that Hcap keeps referring to here. It will present to you a different view of Christianity than the "total Depravity" theory that you have so heartily embraced. And, who knows...it might even resonate with you. After all...what have you got to lose?

I know what I know because of the Word of God and because I have the Holy Spirit living within me. The two -- the Word and the Spirit bear witness to this truth. I know objectively and subjectively.

1 John 5:13
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
NASB

And,
2 Cor 1:21b-22
He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
NIV

P.S. Almost forgot. You are absolutely correct that I am still a "work in progress". But Paul says this about a Christian's sanctification, which is a lifelong process:

Phil 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
NASB

Salvation from A to Z -- from Regeneration to Justification to Sanctification to Glorification is God's work. All a saint does is respond accordingly to that great work within his soul.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What is stopping your from selling all your worldly possessions and giving the proceeds to the "starving children in Africa"?

It's more constructive to use my assets to change the system.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Do you not have dominion over your own will?

Free will is an illusion. We've been over that.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Actor

Free will is an illusion. We've been over that.

Yes, that's old ground.
But if free will is an illusion, how do you know that your logic isn't an illusion?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I know what I know because of the Word of God and because I have the Holy Spirit living within me. The two -- the Word and the Spirit bear witness to this truth. I know objectively and subjectively.

Both read the Bible day and night.
But thou read'st black where I read white

William Blake

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

It would certainly seem that an "all-powerful", "ever-loving" God would lend a helping hand to the most helpless among us...if he really exists, that is. The mystery of mysteries...IMO.

Or maybe "god" is not paying attention to the details. Perhaps events on a longer time scale and more planetary level only become part of what god is concerned with?

Do we watch blood cells or worry about broken capillaries, or take sides in autonomic immune responses? God may only create order within the bounds of accident. Or god may only affect things within the bounds of the randomness of nature.

Eastern thought (Hinduism) combines chaos and order in a "cosmic dance".
In which case an anthropomorphic god floating in the sky is not always available to answer requests or obey human sensitivities. Perhaps the dynamic universe is more complicated than what we can imagine.



A 10th century Chola dynasty bronze sculpture of Shiva, the Lord of the Dance

There is Brahma, the benevolent creator of the universe; there is Vishnu, the sagacious preserver; then there is Shiva, the destroyer. “Destroyer” in this sense is not an entirely negative force, but one that is expansive in its impact. In Hindu religious philosophy all things must come to a natural end so they can begin anew, and Shiva is the agent that brings about this end so that a new cycle can begin.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

It's more constructive to use my assets to change the system.

A lot of kids could die of starvation before all that red tape is cut.

Free will is an illusion. We've been over that.

Yeah, I know. Everything is an illusion. God. Time. Mind. Evil. Good. Free Will. Life itself is an illusion. Therefore, everything you write is an illusion.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

But if free will is an illusion, how do you know that your logic isn't an illusion?

I don't. So my choice is whether to follow logic on the assumption that it works, or else ... ???

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

A lot of kids could die of starvation before all that red tape is cut.

But a lot more lives might be saved if the system can be changed.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yeah, I know. Everything is an illusion. God. Time. Mind. Evil. Good. Free Will. Life itself is an illusion. Therefore, everything you write is an illusion.

As well as everything you write.