Religion II

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Then since you're such a firm believer in "karma" -- people "reaping what they have sown" in this life -- then you can't logically close the door to wicked people like Judas reaping for all eternity in hell what he has sown here on earth.

The punishment is disproportionate. Karma is proportionate.

Originally Posted by boxcar

How is suicide so bad since it relieved Judas of the agony of his soul that he suffered after doing the dastardly deed?

Suicide relieves nothing. What you don't resolve here, you will be forced to resolve on the other side.

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, how is it now, in the context of this Judas discussion, worldly pain and suffering and misery cannot produce spiritual growth and attain to true enlightenment?

I already explained. Pain as a result of your ego as in Judas's case results in suffering. Pain as a result of sacrifice from one's heart results in growth.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Don't YOU rejected the bible's teaching on the visible, eternal kingdom precisely because in such a place karma would become obsolete!!!

Wrong. Karma works both ways. In Heaven,you share love with your fellow souls and it is returned. That is also Karma. It's not always a "bad" thing you know.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Explain to us, please, how Jesus' pain on the cross "enhanced" his life.

He now has 2 Billion followers and growing which was the goal of his life.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, Judas repented of his misdeed, didn't he? Don't forget: Judas was a lover of money, but after he betrayed Jesus his sensitive conscience drove him to return the money to the priests.

Too late. He still has to pay the Karmic price because it resulted in pain to another.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Could it not be reasonably said that Judas made the ultimate sacrifice by sacrificing his own life to Jesus, as atonement of sorts, for his ill-conceived act toward his Master?

Suicide is a very egoistic act, not selfless.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Personally, I really don't see how you can distinguish between Jesus' pain and Judas'.

Then you are blind.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

God doesn't save anyone on the basis of their degrees of goodness -- or their sins being less grievous than others.

Correct. And this is why he saves everyone.

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is no such thing as "salvation's justice"! That's an oxymoron! Salvation saves people from God's wrath

Now that ^^^is an oxymoron.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There can be no such thing as the "law of karma" with Light's idea of his god of love. There is not only no reason for the law to exist, but if it exists....

I'm sorry to inform you that not only does it exist but it is also a scientific principle formulated by Newton:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Originally Posted by boxcar

In the eyes of Light's god, the generous philanthropist and the mass murder or child molester or Buddhist holy man or whatever -- are all on equal footing.

The answer here is probably too "advanced" for your little world, but here goes.

God does not see things in black and white as we do. He does not define as we do. God is one with ALL. That means while you are looking at the "mass murderer" as "demonic" from your tiny perspective, God:

A) Knew he would mass murder before he was born and allowed it to happen

B) Knows every detail in the MM's life that caused him to turn into a MM.

C) Just like he knew Judas would betray him. IT WAS NECESSARY.

There is nothing that happens without God's consent. What happens in this life is not the definition of God.

You keep looking at God and what happens here on Earth as separate from God but that is not reality. It is one of the illusions I have alluded to in this life.

Sin is an illusion. God does not see sin because it is not real because the foundation for it is an illusion such as EGO. He only sees Divine Love from the heart manifested in various forms.

Why do you see God's will split in two when he is one with all? If God has willed good and evil then he will eventually attack himself and his love will be brought to vengeance's feet. And God is insane.

That's why sin is an illusion and Love is all there really is.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm sorry to inform you that not only does it exist but it is also a scientific principle formulated by Newton:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Um...no.

Newton didn’t have karma in mind.

[boxcar]

The link below provides plenty of food for thought. Too much, actually, to expand on in one post. But I'll just quote a couple of excerpts.

We’ll never question God’s justice, wondering how he could send good people to Hell. Rather, we’ll be overwhelmed with his grace, marveling at what he did to send bad people to Heaven. (We will no longer have any illusion that fallen people are good without Christ.) (emphasis mine)

Even the godly here on earth hate what is evil. The godly here on earth hate the enemies of God. Since this is so, how much more when the saints lose their sinful nature altogether in eternity will they abhor all that is evil? (See Ps 97:10; 101:3; 119:128, 158; 139:21; Prov. 29:27; Rom 7:15, etc.).

This is how the writer of the article could say what he did in the bolded part. The mature, godly Christians here on earth already hates what God hates! The godly are not under the illusion that there are truly "good" non-believers here on earth. (Recall Jesus' words that God alone is good!?) And this sentiment will intensify in heaven when the saints have finally thrown off all vestiges of sin (from within and without) and are in the presence of their holy, righteous and just God and Savior!

Then we have this next profound thought:

Although it will inevitably sound harsh, I offer this further thought: in a sense, none of our loved ones will be in Hell—only some whom we once loved. Our love for our companions in Heaven will be directly linked to God, the central object of our love. We will see him in them. We will not love those in Hell because when we see Jesus as he is, we will love only—and will only want to love—whoever and whatever pleases and glorifies and reflects him. What we loved in those who died without Christ was God’s beauty we once saw in them. When God forever withdraws from them, I think they’ll no longer bear his image and no longer reflect his beauty. Although they will be the same people, without God they’ll be stripped of all the qualities we loved. Therefore, paradoxically, in a sense they will not be the people we loved.

I cannot prove biblically what I’ve just stated, but I think it rings true, even if the thought is horrifying.[/quote]

There is a lot of truth to this. In Hell, there is nothing that is good, honorable, holy, righteous or even loving. Hell will be a place of pure evil from which there never will be an escape. Hell will be a place of Evil Unchained. Evil Unfettered. Evil Unleashed. But the most terrifying thought (I think) about Hell is that it will always be a place without hope.

And what the writer says about seeing Christ in all the saints in heaven is spot-on; for even now here on earth, I can see Jesus -- I can see His life -- being lived out in various other saints' lives. I can see the "glow" of Jesus' radiance in their very faces! And when I see this, I am "irresistibly" drawn to such people. I want to be with them. I want to know them better. I want to know how they have become so mature in the faith. I want them to share their spiritual experiences with me, and most especially their biblical insights. In fact, I become downright "jealous" of them; for I want what they have! So, again, how much more so will this kind of experience be intensified in God's perfect heaven? In Heaven, the saints will be so overwhelmed by the NOW EXPERIENCE (since there is no time in heaven!), our minds won't be able to think in terms of the past or the future. There will only be the infinitely glorious NOW forever and ever.

https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/M...-spoil-heaven/

But in addition to these excellent biblical thoughts by the author of the piece, it stands to reason that my all-knowing, all-wise God has already made certain that nothing will corrupt or destroy or taint the indescribable love, joy and peace of all his saints in heaven. Revelation says there will be no tears in heaven (Rev 7:17; 21:4)! This means there will be no sorrow. No pain. No suffering. No misery of any kind. No saint will lament the loss of a loved one because whatever he had on earth will be counted as dung compared to what he has in Heaven! Paul's sentiment when he was here on earth will be intensified many, many thousands of times over.

Phil 3:7-9
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ
NASB

Note: The term translated "rubbish" comes from the Gr. "skubala" which literally means refuse or "dung" (as the KJV rightly has it). In heaven, will not all the saints count all things on earth as loss -- if indeed they could even remember their time on earth?

Finally, we have this very clear teaching contained in Isaiah's prophecy concerning The New Heavens and New Earth.

Isa 65:17-19
7 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind.
18 "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing,
And her people for gladness.
19 "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem, and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
NASB

It has been argued that God is referring to himself in v.17 because there are other passages that teach he will not remember his people's sins. And it has also been argued that it is referring to the saints in his new creation. And it has even been argued that both ideas could be true. I'm with the second option from an exegetical standpoint of the passage itself.

God is speaking to Israel and gives them the great news and great hope that the time is coming when all things will be made new. And a very big part of that great news, and even greater hope, is that Israel's experience in the new creation will not be marred by her being able to recall her apostate and adulterous, spiritual behavior here on earth because the passage itself goes on to say God will create Jerusalem (New Jerusalem in Revelation) for rejoicing and her inhabitants for gladness. But how could there be rejoicing and gladness if the OT saints had to always live with the memory of their sins and the sins of their loved ones not with them?

But there is a second reason, as well for this interpretation. In Jeremiah 3, there is a call from God to Israel for her repentance for her many transgressions. In v. 14, God promises to bring repentant Israel to Zion. And this Zion is heavenly Jerusalem -- "the Throne of the Lord". And we know this is in the coming kingdom age because of the additional promise that the southern kingdom of Judah will walk with the northern kingdom of Israel, which has never happened historically after king Solomon's reign -- a reign that was hundreds of years before this prophecy.

Also, all the nations in v.17 will be gathered to it after the Resurrection and Christ creates the new heavens and new earth. So, we know that God is talking about the eternal, visible kingdom wherein these promises will find their ultimate fulfillment. So, with this context in mind, I want to call to your attention, specifically , v. 16 which reads:

Jer 3:16
16 "And it shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land," declares the Lord, "they shall say no more, 'The ark of the covenant of the Lord.' And it shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they miss it, nor shall it be made again.
NASB

This is a very significant passage since the "ark of the covenant" was no small event in Israel's history. The ark existed long before the first temple. And it was called the "ark of the covenant" because, among other items within the ark, it contained the tablets of the Covenant Law of Moses, and also contained the "Shekinah Glory" of the Lord. The ancient Jewish rabbis coined this expression which is not specifically found in scripture, yet the concept most assuredly is. This term "shekinah" means "he caused to dwell" -- signifying God's presence, visitation or dwelling here on earth, such as in the Ark. And then later on in Israel's history, after Solomon built the first temple, the Shekinah Glory was behind the heavy veil in the holy of holies -- the room in the temple into which only the high priest could enter once a year to offer sacrifices to God.

The reason this passage is so important is because the Ark of the Covenant is a type of Christ and a type of Heaven. In the New Heavens and New Earth (eternal, visible kingdom) both the Lamb of God and the Lord God Almighty are the New Jerusalem's temple (Rev 21:22)! All God's saints in heaven will be priests who will enter that temple and minister to God directly. But nothing profane, unholy or unrighteous will ever be allowed in.

So, what God is saying here is that this type and shadow of Christ in the OT will no longer be remembered, nor will it be missed nor will it ever be made again. And this makes perfectly good sense because the ark has no glory compared to the New Covenant Glory of the Actual Presence of The Reality (cf. 2Cor 3:1-11) Therefore, if something that was good and something that served a good purpose back in Israel's history will never come to a Jew's mind again, will never be remembered, then how much less anything that is evil will come to anyone's mind in the eternal kingdom?

Many Christians in this life harbor great concerns for the eternal welfare of loved ones. This is natural. Any true child of God, who has the love of God in him/her, would have great concern. Many have even have shed many a tear over a loved one, as they ask God to be merciful to a spouse, or a father, or a mother, or a sister, or brother -- but at the same time -- one's genuine faith implicitly trusts God's judgment, God's goodness, God's justice. All true children of God trust in God's righteousness and that he will do the right thing because his will is perfect and just.

Now that I have put your fears to rest through divine revelation, Mr. Light, what is stopping you from becoming a true disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ? Or do you have more reasons to not implicitly trust your "best friend"?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm sorry to inform you that not only does it exist but it is also a scientific principle formulated by Newton:

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

The answer here is probably too "advanced" for your little world, but here goes.

God does not see things in black and white as we do. He does not define as we do. God is one with ALL. That means while you are looking at the "mass murderer" as "demonic" from your tiny perspective, God:

So why do you insist of using your worldly logic to tells us what God can and cannot do.

A) Knew he would mass murder before he was born and allowed it to happen

B) Knows every detail in the MM's life that caused him to turn into a MM.

C) Just like he knew Judas would betray him. IT WAS NECESSARY.

There is nothing that happens without God's consent. What happens in this life is not the definition of God.

You keep looking at God and what happens here on Earth as separate from God but that is not reality. It is one of the illusions I have alluded to in this life.

Sin is an illusion. God does not see sin because it is not real because the foundation for it is an illusion such as EGO. He only sees Divine Love from the heart manifested in various forms.

Why do you see God's will split in two when he is one with all? If God has willed good and evil then he will eventually attack himself and his love will be brought to vengeance's feet. And God is insane.

That's why sin is an illusion and Love is all there really is.

So, then...with God's unconditional love for all, there can be no such thing as "karma". Since God loves all equally, he must treat all equally. Since karma is a law, then it must be God's law. And unconditional love would demand that God treat everyone the same.

Moreover unconditional loves completely negates the necessity for "karma" since no one will ever stopped being loved by God as much as everyone else is loved by him.

Understand this once and for all: What you call "karma" or what the bible calls the principle of Sowing and Reaping is only logically consistent with biblical theism -- not your Buddhism, Hinduism or any other "ism" to which you may subscribe.

And if sin is an illusion, your "best friend" was the biggest, dumbest, stupidest idiot that ever lived; since everywhere in scripture it is said of Him that he came to bear his people's sins in his body. He suffered the horrible death of the Cross to pay his people's sin debt! It's no wonder you don't believe a thing he says; for you know, in your heart of hearts, that he was a delusional moron! But you want to play cute with us all and pretend that he was really a neat spiritual kind of Jewish guru.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Um...no.

Newton didn’t have karma in mind.

You have finally said something intelligent.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Correct. And this is why he saves everyone.

You didn't read Romans 8 and 9, did you?

Now that ^^^is an oxymoron.

Nor did you read Rom 5:9, heh?

But that's okay. There's plenty of pain and suffering in hell to keep "growing" you spiritually for all eternity.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Then since you're such a firm believer in "karma" -- people "reaping what they have sown" in this life -- then

Before you continue mocking "Karma" anymore, you should read your Bible as there are many passages alluding to it. Here are just a few:

Galatians 6:7 A man reaps what he sows.

Corinthians 9:6; "The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully."

Luke 6:38; "Give, and it will be given to you.

Hosea 10:12; "Sow righteousness for yourselves, reap unfailing love.

Job 4:8 As I have seen, those who plow iniquity
and sow trouble reap the same.

Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Psalm 126:5 Those who sow in tears shall reap with shouts of joy!


Hey Box, that last one sounds a bit like the pain I've been talking about that makes you grow to eventually reap the joy within. A concept that you find foreign. Funny you don't seem familiar with ALL that the Bible has to say.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

The punishment is disproportionate. Karma is proportionate.

No it isn't. It's proportionate to the immensity of the offense. And all offenses are infinitely offensive to an infinitely holy, righteous and just God. Therefore, eternal punishment proportionately fits the crime.

Suicide relieves nothing. What you don't resolve here, you will be forced to resolve on the other side.

But why would your god of unconditional love "force" resolution? What does your god force, specifically? Punishment? But how could your god of all love, all unconditional love even think about punishment, let alone administer it? Punishment would be beneath your god. Punishment is something very imperfect, fallible humans do to one another. Are you telling us that your god of unconditional lowers himself to human standards?

I already explained. Pain as a result of your ego as in Judas's case results in suffering. Pain as a result of sacrifice from one's heart results in growth.

So if this is NOW the case with you -- if you're NOW signing this different tune, why was the eternal, visible kingdom wherein all righteousness and holiness dwells, in a perfectly pristine, sinless environment so repugnant to you a few months ago? Why did you insist that pain and suffering are absolutely necessary for spiritual growth and enlightenment?

Wrong. Karma works both ways. In Heaven,you share love with your fellow souls and it is returned. That is also Karma. It's not always a "bad" thing you know.

There is no "karma" in heaven because heaven is already a perfect, sinless environment. To expect reciprocation implies that heaven will always be lacking in some way because one would always be anticipating or expecting something in return, such as the expectation of kindness in return for kindness. In a perfect environment, there would be no expectation or anticipation of improvement in any way, shape of form. Karma in heaven would be as useless as faith, hope, mercy or compassion in heaven.

He now has 2 Billion followers and growing which was the goal of his life.

Really? So, Jesus must not have been God in the flesh because God, being a perfect being, needs nothing. There is nothing that can enhance or improve his being. If God needed something to "enhance" his existence, then he must not be God. A gazillion followers are not going to increase the value of God's being or improve his being or enhance his being one iota. God needs nothing from his creatures.

Ps 50:12
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
KJV

Too late. He still has to pay the Karmic price because it resulted in pain to another.

I thought you frowned on the idea of being judgmental? How do you get to sit in judgment of Judas? Are you so much more righteous and enlightened than he was?

And who demands this price: your god of unconditional love? And what price did your god of unconditional love require Judas to pay?

And how come the repentant thief on the cross didn't have to pay a price? How did he get away with a life of sin and make a "deathbed" profession of faith?

Suicide is a very egoistic act, not selfless.

But it beats going out and bragging about what he did. His suicide tells us he felt real guilt and genuine remorse. Haven't you ever done something really bad and experience such negative feelings afterward about yourself? Or are you too righteous to have ever done something really wicked?

Then you are blind.

No, you just can't come up with a convincing argument. I see Judas as being repentant, and repentance is necessary for salvation. Even your "best friend" preached repentance. To "repent" literally means to have a change of heart or mind, and clearly Judas did!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Before you continue mocking "Karma" anymore, you should read your Bible as there are many passages alluding to it. Here are just a few:

Galatians 6:7 A man reaps what he sows.

Corinthians 9:6; "The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully."

Luke 6:38; "Give, and it will be given to you.

Hosea 10:12; "Sow righteousness for yourselves, reap unfailing love.

Job 4:8 As I have seen, those who plow iniquity
and sow trouble reap the same.

Galatians 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Psalm 126:5 Those who sow in tears shall reap with shouts of joy!


Hey Box, that last one sounds a bit like the pain I've been talking about that makes you grow to eventually reap the joy within. A concept that you find foreign. Funny you don't seem familiar with ALL that the Bible has to say.

You need to learn how to read! You think you are so smart and so enlightened and so ahead of the spiritual curve, but yet you cannot comprehend plain language.

What I have maintained consistently is this:

1. What you call "karma" or the bible calls "sowing and reaping" is a principle logically consistent with biblical theism.

2. Conversely, the principle above (by whatever name you choose) is not logically consistent with your sweet tooth, lollipop, cream puff doctrine of the unconditional nature of your god's love. In fact, I demonstrated how the two doctrines violate the Law of Noncontradiction.

And thanks for quoting many of the texts I actually cited yesterday. I make it really easy for you, don't I?

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You need to learn how to read! You think you are so smart and so enlightened and so ahead of the spiritual curve...

I am only so "enlightened" compared to you.

Originally Posted by boxcar

1. What you call "karma" or the bible calls "sowing and reaping" is a principle logically consistent with biblical theism.

Then stop giving me a hard time about it just because the word "Karma" is not in the Bible. All religions say the same things basically but in different ways. But "different" is not something you accept easily.

You don't like when I borrow something from another religion and equate it to Christianity because you want to keep thinking YOU have the right religion. Nonsense. The only religion is what is in your heart. You still haven't learned that very very important lesson from Jesus which is the essence of Christianity.You miss the very HEART of Christianity while proclaiming yourself an exceptional Christian. Guess again.

Originally Posted by boxcar

2. Conversely, the principle above (by whatever name you choose) is not logically consistent with your sweet tooth, lollipop, cream puff doctrine of the unconditional nature of your god's love. In fact, I demonstrated how the two doctrines violate the Law of Noncontradiction.

God laughs at your "laws". There are many laws that we haven't even discovered yet that will turn your present laws upside down.

You think we are so advanced? We are stone age compared to what we will be if we survive as a species.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The mature, godly Christians here on earth already hates what God hates!

God doesn't hate. You hate.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Although it will inevitably sound harsh, I offer this further thought: in a sense, none of our loved ones will be in Hell—only some whom we once loved. Our love for our companions in Heaven will be directly linked to God, the central object of our love. We will see him in them. We will not love those in Hell because when we see Jesus as he is, we will love only—and will only want to love—whoever and whatever pleases and glorifies and reflects him. What we loved in those who died without Christ was God’s beauty we once saw in them. When God forever withdraws from them, I think they’ll no longer bear his image and no longer reflect his beauty. Although they will be the same people, without God they’ll be stripped of all the qualities we loved. Therefore, paradoxically, in a sense they will not be the people we loved.

Really? Imagine if the person who you love the most in your life right now will be tormented for eternity. Will the crap you just wrote make you feel better? You live in fantasy and have no clue how devastated you will be in reality.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So why do you insist of using your worldly logic to tells us what God can and cannot do.

Karma is the spiritual equivalent of Newtons physical law.

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, then...with God's unconditional love for all, there can be no such thing as "karma". Since God loves all equally, he must treat all equally. Since karma is a law, then it must be God's law. And unconditional love would demand that God treat everyone the same.

Some of us are more advanced and do not create as much Karma for ourselves. That does not affect how much God loves us.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And if sin is an illusion, your "best friend" was the biggest, dumbest, stupidest idiot that ever lived; since everywhere in scripture it is said of Him that he came to bear his people's sins in his body. He suffered the horrible death of the Cross to pay his people's sin debt! It's no wonder you don't believe a thing he says; for you know, in your heart of hearts, that he was a delusional moron! But you want to play cute with us all and pretend that he was really a neat spiritual kind of Jewish guru.

I knew you would not understand the "illusion of sin". Too advanced for you. If you don't get it, do you think the simpletons of 2000 years ago could understand it? NO.

Only when you TRANSCEND sin can you understand its illusion. Christ was not about to go over their heads explaining advanced spirituality to people who had no experience in that and were totally materialistic.

When you experience God, you will understand what I say.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Although it will inevitably sound harsh, I offer this further thought: in a sense, none of our loved ones will be in Hell—only some whom we once loved. Our love for our companions in Heaven will be directly linked to God, the central object of our love. We will see him in them. We will not love those in Hell because when we see Jesus as he is, we will love only—and will only want to love—whoever and whatever pleases and glorifies and reflects him. What we loved in those who died without Christ was God’s beauty we once saw in them. When God forever withdraws from them, I think they’ll no longer bear his image and no longer reflect his beauty. Although they will be the same people, without God they’ll be stripped of all the qualities we loved. Therefore, paradoxically, in a sense they will not be the people we loved.

You missed your calling. You would have made a FORTUNE writing children's books...to scare the kiddies into eating their spinach.