Too friendly NYRA Riding Colony

[EMD4ME]

So, we have Jose and Irad dominating the circuit.

Their "cousin" Manuel Franco is always in the top standings of riders.

Now, Taylor Rice, is marrying 1 of the Ortiz boys.

Who sees anything wrong with this picture?

[EMD4ME]

Uh Oh. LOL. The time elapsed to "edit". CJ, can you help change the thread title to:

Too friendly NYRA Jockey Colony?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I can see that. I'll edit the thread title, just to err on the side of caution.

I just knew the thread with go sideways sooner than it was going to anyway with a title like that given all the family references that you made. Kind of detracts from your point.

I'll say this - in a room full of several dozen jocks, there's always going to be a few groups of very close people, blood or marriage certificate not withstanding. I think you need to bring clear evidence to support your contentions when it comes to this stuff, because presuming these relationships are stronger than others or that they lead to something because of it is a leap too far for me.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

I just knew the thread with go sideways sooner than it was going to anyway with a title like that given all the family references that you made. Kind of detracts from your point.

I'll say this - in a room full of several dozen jocks, there's always going to be a few groups of very close people, blood or marriage certificate not withstanding. I think you need to bring clear evidence to support your contentions when it comes to this stuff, because presuming these relationships are stronger than others or that they lead to something because of it is a leap too far for me.

Videotape......... have dozens of examples. But regardless, not here to prove it, just vent about it as I do love the NYRA product. But when does it end? When does the (not directly but indirectly) employer, in this case the racetrack, say some of you need to go in the best interest of the game?

When does the perception of the game start to matter, in terms of the jockey's room?

And to be fair. It's not just about "them". We have 3 Davis kids and 2 Saez's.

My question is the following: At some point, shouldn't a policy be put in place where only 1 relative can ride in each specific race?

[EMD4ME]

I've turned some heavy hitters (At NYRA) on to wagering at Emerald Downs the past few years.

I'm going to quote some amazing words that were said:

Holy Sheet, look at these guys ride from the gate!!

Wow, there isn't a single horse being pulled or grabbed at all day!!!

Is that what an all out hell bent duel is???

Look at the aggression with which these guys ride with!

Not saying NYRA doesn't have this, not NYRA bashing. However, as a dedicated NYRA follower, I expect a top quality product and quite honestly, I have not had any complaints about the Belmont meet. I have seen mostly hard/competitive rides with very few, if any, shenanigans.

But it goes to show you just how much the product has almost desensitized even the most hardcore of players ($500K-$2MM a year in handle). These players were INVIGORATED while watching a race at Emerald Downs, as opposed to a NYRA race.

I say this as there has to reach a point where NYRA protects their product. Watching 3 relatives who live together and ride together (with others very close to them-Cornelio/Javier/Angel Cruz last year) is not what a true horseplayer wants to see day in and day out.

It's just too friendly out there.

Yes, I am speaking about PRIOR performance. Not recent performance as I have had no issues in the past 2 months with the race riding (for the most part).

In any game with money involved, integrity is paramount.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I'm not trying to tell you that any of what you say is necessarily crazy talk or even wrong, just that we'd all be better off if the standard is to take action on things that clearly happen or deal in some way with those that happen and clearly could be interpreted in a nefarious way. I think a fair percentage or riders I know can barely tolerate their spouses or won't ride for their no-training father unless they just need a jock mount or what have you. If a family of honest, decent people take up residence at a circuit, that should be a good thing. If five totally unrelated well-documented thieves all start hanging around together, that probably should not be a good thing. Frankly, I'm not even sure how you'd go about dictating who goes, who can stay, if the family ban applies across jurisdictions - who is going to get that ball rolling and see that one through all the years of stays and appeals?

Much, much, much better for everyone and the game, in my opinion, if examples of perceived nefariousness are dealt with on their own merit and cure it that way than it is to come up with what are probably mostly unenforceable policies based strictly on perception. If the perception is so prevalent as to require such a policy, then there must surely be concise examples from which a career-altering ruling or series of rulings much more tangible and useful in protecting the public from all riders can be levied.

[cj]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I've turned some heavy hitters (At NYRA) on to wagering at Emerald Downs the past few years.

I'm going to quote some amazing words that were said:

Holy Sheet, look at these guys ride from the gate!!

Wow, there isn't a single horse being pulled or grabbed at all day!!!

Is that what an all out hell bent duel is???

Look at the aggression with which these guys ride with!

Not saying NYRA doesn't have this, not NYRA bashing. However, as a dedicated NYRA follower, I expect a top quality product and quite honestly, I have not had any complaints about the Belmont meet. I have seen mostly hard/competitive rides with very few, if any, shenanigans.

But it goes to show you just how much the product has almost desensitized even the most hardcore of players ($500K-$2MM a year in handle). These players were INVIGORATED while watching a race at Emerald Downs, as opposed to a NYRA race.

I say this as there has to reach a point where NYRA protects their product. Watching 3 relatives who live together and ride together (with others very close to them-Cornelio/Javier/Angel Cruz last year) is not what a true horseplayer wants to see day in and day out.

It's just too friendly out there.

Yes, I am speaking about PRIOR performance. Not recent performance as I have had no issues in the past 2 months with the race riding (for the most part).

In any game with money involved, integrity is paramount.

I think the difference in aggressive riding has a lot more to do with the purses at the various tracks than it does collusion. There are lots of reasons not to be aggressive in New York.

[Robert Fischer]

Paceless race - Irad gets the favorite and takes him back for a very patient trip and a 1 run.
Jose gets a long shot and is allowed to jog uncontested on the lead (and uncontested into the stretch if things go as planned).

[johnhannibalsmith]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Paceless race - Irad gets the favorite and takes him back for a very patient trip and a 1 run.
Jose gets a long shot and is allowed to jog uncontested on the lead (and uncontested into the stretch if things go as planned).

And when that happens you call in everyone involved and start asking a lot of questions and turn up the heat a bit. That can happen if the names are Jose and Irad or if they are Joe and Paul and been pals for a week and a half. The problem isn't who is related to who, it is the questionable tactics and ride. Let's get the problem.

[whodoyoulike]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

I've turned some heavy hitters (At NYRA) on to wagering at Emerald Downs the past few years....

Not saying NYRA doesn't have this, not NYRA bashing. However, as a dedicated NYRA follower, I expect a top quality product and quite honestly, I have not had any complaints about the Belmont meet. I have seen mostly hard/competitive rides with very few, if any, shenanigans.

But it goes to show you just how much the product has almost desensitized even the most hardcore of players ($500K-$2MM a year in handle). These players were INVIGORATED while watching a race at Emerald Downs, as opposed to a NYRA race. ...

In any game with money involved, integrity is paramount.

In Cali there are rules against collusion and I would think it's the same in most if not all jurisdictions.

What I don't understand from your post is why would hardcore players who are consistently making ($500K-$2MM a year in handle) not know about EMD racing or decide to change what they're doing based on a few races being pointed out by you?

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

And when that happens you call in everyone involved and start asking a lot of questions and turn up the heat a bit. That can happen if the names are Jose and Irad or if they are Joe and Paul and been pals for a week and a half. The problem isn't who is related to who, it is the questionable tactics and ride. Let's get the problem.

It just looks worse and worse when guys are related.

I know many companies that don't allow relatives to work for the company. Nothing wrong with ensuring no collusion goes on.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by whodoyoulike

In Cali there are rules against collusion and I would think it's the same in most if not all jurisdictions.

What I don't understand from your post is why would hardcore players who are consistently making ($500K-$2MM a year in handle) not know about EMD racing or decide to change what they're doing based on a few races being pointed out by you?

Horseplayers are creatures of habit. They will do the same thing over and over again. Like the definition of insane.......

I am not one of those. I have adjusted and adjusted and adjusted as time has gone on and the game has changed. Others can't/won't/are unable to do so.

They will bet NYRA/CALI as that's what everyone else does, all the time.

I'll tell you what though, when the Emerald feed is on, they all clamor for some opinions and enjoy watching those races.

Down side, can't bet much. Smaller pools and I tell them, you crush my ticket, I'm taking 20% of the return from your account. Not kidding. And I never give out any multi race opinions. Don't want to split a nickel with anyone who bets my bets.

[thespaah]

Originally Posted by EMD4ME

Videotape......... have dozens of examples. But regardless, not here to prove it, just vent about it as I do love the NYRA product. But when does it end? When does the (not directly but indirectly) employer, in this case the racetrack, say some of you need to go in the best interest of the game?

When does the perception of the game start to matter, in terms of the jockey's room?

And to be fair. It's not just about "them". We have 3 Davis kids and 2 Saez's.

My question is the following: At some point, shouldn't a policy be put in place where only 1 relative can ride in each specific race?

Its not just relatives. Cordero and Jorge Velasquez were good friends.
And don't forget the friendships and alliances among trainers.
And the friendships and alliances between jockey's and trainers.
It goes on and on.
One would hope the appearance of impropriety does not translate to the reality of improproiety.
On the other hand, one would believe that the Stewards are watching these people with greater scrutiny.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by cj

I think the difference in aggressive riding has a lot more to do with the purses at the various tracks than it does collusion. There are lots of reasons not to be aggressive in New York.

I am not naive. One other factor is EMD has a speed favoring perception where as NYRA tracks are more sustaining type of tracks.

There's no black and white but there is doubt when you see certain decisions made in a race.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by thespaah

Its not just relatives. Cordero and Jorge Velasquez were good friends.
And don't forget the friendships and alliances among trainers.
And the friendships and alliances between jockey's and trainers.
It goes on and on.
One would hope the appearance of impropriety does not translate to the reality of improproiety.
On the other hand, one would believe that the Stewards are watching these people with greater scrutiny.

That is the funniest thing I've heard all month !!!!