Beyer on Dutrow, Wolfson, etc.

[ralph_the_cat]

Originally Posted by slew101

Lava Man perhaps? Trained by Doug O'Neill.

No Im talkn about another one, before some of us were born or atleast in our diapers... forget his name, someone brought him up on another forum... one of the great rags to riches stories from years ago...

as far as Lava Man
DOug didnt have success right away, it took time, he figured the horse out, heard the horse had terrible feet/coffin joint problems... Lava Man never really got burnt out if you think about it... he ran game for years... age caught up with him, he still coulda ran big in lesser races at his old age... IMO, Lava Man is a bad example for those that want to cry cheater... he really never got sour, he ran big for years once he got right...

[ralph_the_cat]

Originally Posted by how cliche

This is a little off topic & btw I agree with Beyer. I was contemplating playing the late pick 4 at GP on Sunshine Millions Day when perusing the aforementioned race I thought, 'I gotta use this horse prominently...1st time Dutrowjuice.' Accept the juice and don't try to fight it when the powers that be aren't.


There's a theory about why certain runners like Lava Man, General Challenge and Senor Swinger only performed well in Southern California. In the medication column of your past performance profile you'll note other states like KY of FL only feature an L, but in CA it features an LB.

B, bute, its so regularly used they stopped listing it in programs for most tracks...

[sonnyp]

Originally Posted by rjorio

I understand that Richard Dutrow is an extremely competent trainer ,but if his cheating is endangering the welfare of his horses can he be considered a great horseman.

are these great horsemen ? (pardon the spelling)

oscar barrera
"pistol pete" ferriola
juan serrey
gaspar moschera

[A. Pineda]

Originally Posted by ralph_the_cat

... and what was that super horse that started out a claimer back in the day... considered one of the best claimers before our time, forget his name, but he went on to win a couple graded stakes, the name will come to me... losers have been crying "cheater" since the beginning of man...

John Henry was a good one...

[Charlie D]

Originally Posted by the little guy

I'm very well aware of that. Thanks.

Don't think i stated you were not aware, but thanks for telling me you were

[JustRalph]

I still can't get over the horse went from an 81 to 117

That ought to be like a shot in the head with a sledgehammer.......... somebody find me another horse that has done that?

How many 117's have been run the last five years?

[ralph_the_cat]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

I still can't get over the horse went from an 81 to 117

That ought to be like a shot in the head with a sledgehammer.......... somebody find me another horse that has done that?

How many 117's have been run the last five years?

IS the 117 even accurate?...

[cj]

I don't see any evidence at all that it isn't accurate, and at the very least in the ballpark.

[BombsAway Bob]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

I still can't get over the horse went from an 81 to 117
That ought to be like a shot in the head with a sledgehammer.......... somebody find me another horse that has done that?
How many 117's have been run the last five years?

is there a "formulator" capable way of looking for
"Biggest Beyer increases after seven or more races" by a trainer?

[point given]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Apparently Rick Dutrow would disagree with you as here are his quotes for DRF regarding the improvement his new charge showed.....


When asked to explain This Ones for Phil's sudden improvement, Dutrow said one of the answers could be found in the little black bag sitting just outside the tack room. He then reached into his bag and pulled out . . . his training chart.

"I decided not to pound on him in the morning," he said. "See the chart. I just jogged him between breezes, then blew him out a little bit the morning of the race. He also just might like this track."

Thanks for the DRF quote . I guess liking the track was it, as his workouts clearly showed. Gourgeous George your next up in the ring. Make it look nice, we're on national tv .

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by ralph_the_cat

No Im talkn about another one, before some of us were born or atleast in our diapers... forget his name, someone brought him up on another forum... one of the great rags to riches stories from years ago...

Stymie, perhaps?

Originally Posted by sonnyp

are these great horsemen ? (pardon the spelling)

oscar barrera
"pistol pete" ferriola
juan serrey
gaspar moschera

I guess you're not buying Mochera's statement in an interview a few months ago to the effect that drugs drove him out of the game.

I thought I'd ask both of you, rtc and sp, what you feel primarily keeps most trainers from cheating? Is it concern for the horses, ethics, lack of nerve, owners unwilling to spend money, owners unable to spend money, owners with ethics, other?

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by the little guy

That may not be too fair. My guess is that regardless of whether or not Rick Dutrow is a cheater, he's a damn good trainer. The bad trainers who cheat rarely last very long. If I had to guess, if somebody waived a wand, and there was absolutely no more cheating, that Rick Dutrow would still win his fair share.

I'm neither absolving the cheaters nor stating any opinions on one person or another. I think the " cheating " is severely damaging the game, to be kind, but I also wouldn't be too dismissive of any successful trainers....whether I trust them or not.

I think you make a very good point here. Regardless of whatever cheating I or anyone else thinks, it's hard to not realize guys like Dutrow, Asmussen, Wolfson, etc are very good trainers.

[classhandicapper]

When I handicapped the race I noticed that the horse was first time Dutrow and felt that he might wind up being a good value at GP because the crowd there might not be as astute as the fans in NY where they've seen him move up dozens of horses. I considered making a wager, but decided against it because I felt that even if the horse moved up, he would probably not move up enough to beat the favorite. So I was quite upset by the result and the generous exacta payoff.

I'm not sure what to say about this kind of thing.

It's not that unusual for a winter/spring 3YO to improve dramatically out of nowhere. If the horse wasn't trained by Dutrow, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. While not likely, it's possible that some natural improvement combined with superior horsemanship and that lead to an explosive effort. He is a great trainer too. It's also possible he cheated. However, until someone catches him with the real move up juice, we should probably just be playing his new horses at generous prices.

[pandy]

[QUOTE=Indulto]Stymie, perhaps?I guess you're not buying Mochera's statement in an interview a few months ago to the effect that drugs drove him out of the game.

As far as I know Moschera didn't have any positives, these other guys have plenty. Also, Moschera kept quite a few horses racing and winning for a long time, which is not the profile of a drug trainer.

[twindouble]

Look guys, I respect your knowledge about this horse, that horse, this trainer, that trainer and their history of suspensions or lack of. For many years now I've picked up on horses that had extraordinary improvement that was way out of the norm, ESP older horses and no they all didn't come from the hands of a new trainer. My early predictions proved out because it was a very simple deduction. That was, we are a drug culture and that would spill over into racing. Anyone who thinks that isn't a fact, well what can I say other than being rude.

Don't include me in that drug culture, I can't remember the last time I took a pill. On second thought yes I can but I can't talk about.

Even though I take advantage of the Beyer figures by ignoring them I agree with him, he should continue to pound it home. Common sense told me his figures would be in trouble when drugs took over the game. I'm a gambler so I take advantage of whatever I can to make a buck. Handicapping the thieves go with the game but at this day and age it's got way out of hand. Not only for players including the horses. Not to mention the extremely negative effect it has on racing as a whole.

Trainers experimenting with different ways to make a horse run faster and longer is nothing new, it's the degree of it today that's sickening to all of us.

Good luck,

T.D.