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Old 09-12-2021, 09:24 AM   #106
castaway01
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Originally Posted by azeri98 View Post
You guys just hate Baffert when other trainers are doing the exact same things. I just have to shake my head. Let these other guys get away with the same offences but lets ruin another guys career. You either throw them all out or let them all play. There is no in between. There shouldn't be anyway.
Do you have any better argument than "no rule should be enforced unless it is perfectly enforced equally for everyone"? As has been pointed out repeatedly, that's not the way life works in any area of the world, and following your logic would lead to no rules being enforced anywhere. I just don't see that as a "better" solution than what we have here.

You keep bringing up baseball. Do any research into rampant drug cheating in the NFL, track and field, Tour De France, weightlifting, literally pick any sport and there has been selective "unfair" enforcement or no enforcement at all. Baseball at least actually did something and set some rules, eventually, and not just pretend nothing is happening. And now for racing this is an attempt to do something rather than ignoring everything. If you're going to pick on someone who has been incredibly financially successful while having a highly dubious history of drug violations and deaths...it's not the worst person to selectively enforce.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:29 AM   #107
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Of course he wouldn’t admit it, but the burden is not on him to prove he didn’t dope the horse with something other than the legal therapeutic he agrees was in the horse’s system. So you DQ the horse, give him a suspension, and then he eventually comes back. This would probably be close to over already if he would have accepted responsibility right from the start. If they really want him out of the sport, IMO they have to do better than this drug at this level. Wiretaps seem to work. lol
I disagree. I think the positive test alone should draw the suspension and disqualification.

I don't think there's any such thing as "proving he didn't dope the horse". If the horse tests positive, he doped the horse.

One of the reason this sport has such a big drug problem is we are always looking for reasons to indulge and excuse the trainers. And bear in mind, that's not in the written rules- the written rules say trainers are absolute insurers, not that positive tests are OK if there's an excuse.

And I don't expect trainers to accept responsibility. I expect them to lie, because as I explained a few months ago, it is literally the trainer's job to lie. If the trainer admits doping, he violates a duty to his owner to try and win the race. I don't care what Baffert's explanations are. You test positive, you are DQ'd and suspended. Let Baffert and others figure out how to not have their horses test positive.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:30 AM   #108
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If my memory is correct Dutrow’s original suspension was 30 or 60 days and turned into 10 years after he appealed and it was reviewed. Sometimes it’s better to just shut up and take the hit. IMO the Dutrow case was way worse than this one. There were syringes with banned substances involved, a lot of therapeutic overages like in this case, and a long history of dramatic move ups on a trainer change to him.
And even then, Dutrow had big-time defenders within the sport and still does even now.
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:37 AM   #109
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You guys just hate Baffert when other trainers are doing the exact same things. I just have to shake my head. Let these other guys get away with the same offences but lets ruin another guys career. You either throw them all out or let them all play. There is no in between. There shouldn't be anyway.

Yes, there are other guys but Baffert does cheat in the most prestigious races in the sport and if you look at it in terms of money (purse money and breeding rights), he's probably the biggest crook in the history of the sport. Think of all of the owners, horses, trainers, who could have won a major stakes race but ran second to one of his doped-up horses.

And in terms of the number of drug violations per start and horses that simply dropped dead, Baffert is the leader in both categories according to the stats that I've seen. Rudy Rodriguez and John Sadler both have a lot of violations per start as well. The other thing is that Baffert lies and makes up crazy excuses and is an embarrassment to the sport.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:00 AM   #110
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I disagree. I think the positive test alone should draw the suspension and disqualification.

I don't think there's any such thing as "proving he didn't dope the horse". If the horse tests positive, he doped the horse.
We agree that this therapeutic overage deserves a DQ and suspension. I’m not sure how many times I can say the horse should be DQ’d and he should be suspended.

Maybe we are miscommunicating.

To me giving a horse is legal therapeutic is not “doping” even if it causes a positive. Doping is what Navarro and Servis were doing.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:02 AM   #111
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And even then, Dutrow had big-time defenders within the sport and still does even now.
Sometimes they line up outside Saratoga with posters and signs right next to the PETA people.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:53 AM   #112
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Do you have any better argument than "no rule should be enforced unless it is perfectly enforced equally for everyone"? As has been pointed out repeatedly, that's not the way life works in any area of the world, and following your logic would lead to no rules being enforced anywhere. I just don't see that as a "better" solution than what we have here.

You keep bringing up baseball. Do any research into rampant drug cheating in the NFL, track and field, Tour De France, weightlifting, literally pick any sport and there has been selective "unfair" enforcement or no enforcement at all. Baseball at least actually did something and set some rules, eventually, and not just pretend nothing is happening. And now for racing this is an attempt to do something rather than ignoring everything. If you're going to pick on someone who has been incredibly financially successful while having a highly dubious history of drug violations and deaths...it's not the worst person to selectively enforce.
I'm not saying the rule shouldn't be enforced but give him the same penalty you give to others. Banning him for 2 years from Churchill seems excessive. Then throw in the Nyra and BC ban and it gets ridiculous compared to what others have received.
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Old 09-12-2021, 10:56 AM   #113
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I disagree. I think the positive test alone should draw the suspension and disqualification.

I don't think there's any such thing as "proving he didn't dope the horse". If the horse tests positive, he doped the horse.

One of the reason this sport has such a big drug problem is we are always looking for reasons to indulge and excuse the trainers. And bear in mind, that's not in the written rules- the written rules say trainers are absolute insurers, not that positive tests are OK if there's an excuse.

And I don't expect trainers to accept responsibility. I expect them to lie, because as I explained a few months ago, it is literally the trainer's job to lie. If the trainer admits doping, he violates a duty to his owner to try and win the race. I don't care what Baffert's explanations are. You test positive, you are DQ'd and suspended. Let Baffert and others figure out how to not have their horses test positive.
I'm not saying the horse shouldn't be DQ or he be suspended. I just the punishment is excessive in terms of the suspension and banning from Nyra and BC races.
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Old 09-12-2021, 11:11 AM   #114
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Yes, there are other guys but Baffert does cheat in the most prestigious races in the sport and if you look at it in terms of money (purse money and breeding rights), he's probably the biggest crook in the history of the sport. Think of all of the owners, horses, trainers, who could have won a major stakes race but ran second to one of his doped-up horses.

And in terms of the number of drug violations per start and horses that simply dropped dead, Baffert is the leader in both categories according to the stats that I've seen. Rudy Rodriguez and John Sadler both have a lot of violations per start as well. The other thing is that Baffert lies and makes up crazy excuses and is an embarrassment to the sport.
I'm not saying he doesn't cheat. I think they all do, just like everyone did in the Olympics in the 80's and 90's but they cleaned up the sport which i wish horse racing would do. Getting rid of one guy is not going to fix the problem. It's more of a PR move so they can say. "Hey we got rid of best trainer because he was doping" meanwhile letting everyone else slide. The New York Times reported has has had 29 drug overages spanning 4 decades. That's less than once a year. I don't know how that compares to others but that doesn't seem to me that it's excessive. I don't know where to find the stats of trainers having drug overages or suspensions Maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:01 PM   #115
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Look how long it is taking with the Medina Spirit Derby issue. It is nearly going on five months already.

It took 4 years for the Dancer's Image DQ to exhaust appeals, etc, so 5 months may be a blip on this journey.
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:05 PM   #116
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Hearing Breeders' Cup is under enormous pressure to ban Baffert. Source I trust says they will but I'll wait till it's in writing by the Breeders' Cup.

So will the multiple board members of the BC who have horses with Baffert excuse themselves from this process, if they're indeed the ones making this decision?
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:15 PM   #117
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So will the multiple board members of the BC who have horses with Baffert excuse themselves from this process, if they're indeed the ones making this decision?
They're gonna have to lead the way by dropping him IMO
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:28 PM   #118
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All true so the question is now. If he didn't appeal and make excuses. Would they still be doing it? Like you said other trainers have appealed both the length of the suspension and fine. So the only difference is that he made excuses? Wow you really are grasping at straws. He's won 4 of the last 5 Derby's. That's what I think they don't like. They call it the hardest race to win and he made it look easy. It doesn't make for good TV if Baffert wins every year. Throw in that he's not humble about it and there you go.
The difference is this...none of them have been caught in the Kentucky Oaks, Kentucky Derby, and Arkansas Derby. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but this is always going to be bigger than getting popped in a 10k NW2 claimer somewhere.
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Old 09-12-2021, 01:03 PM   #119
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You can get the ones who's horses have tested positive. There are a lot of them and none of them are getting the same treatment Baffert is.
I don’t think anybody is going to argue against stiff penalties for them, they are mutually exclusive to Baffert or any other trainer
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Old 09-12-2021, 03:29 PM   #120
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So what? "You can't fine me for speeding. 100 other people got away with it." Try that in traffic court and let us know how it goes.
Not what I said at all. I simply asked if CD should ban those trainers horses from running in the Derby based on their violations.

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