THE INSANITY CURRENTLY GRIPPING THE INDUSTRY HAS TO END NOW!

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by dasch

I really haven't watched much Hong Kong racing but I definitely admire the effort they take to insure the integrity of their racing product.

Are there drastic odds changes during the races there?

Probably not...not only are they bastions of clean racing, they are also the bastion of technology.

I'm sure their tote boards update more than once every 20-60 seconds.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Probably not...not only are they bastions of clean racing, they are also the bastion of technology.

I'm sure their tote boards update more than once every 20-60 seconds.

Shame no one has responded to my previous challenge to keep track of how many betdowns win and what the roi is. Well, maybe ya'll are working on the code to automate it

Oh, and guess what. The late money that I've seen come in at the BELL on hong kong races make our whales look like $2 show pikers. YUGE! pools. MASSIVE crushed odds. Bettors with their hair on fire running from the building. And lots of these LOSE.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[cj]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Why wouldn't I be OK with it? It's a free country.

I think it's a very persuasive argument. It's one thing when something hidden is revealed (like the Pick 6 scandal). It's another thing when potential evidence is there every single day for all to see.

I just don't know. I don't think there is past posting going on regularly, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns that there is. We don't know what is in these logs that are being monitored by the TRPB and who has control over producing them or how accurate they are. I have no faith in the tech being used in racing and I'd be shocked if there aren't ways to beat it. I know a thing or two about high level tech security from my time in the Air Force and working for NATO.

According to Maloney's book, tracks don't even know when the races go off exactly. If it has changed the information still hasn't found its way to the charts. We just get it to the nearest minute.

Look at the TRPB website:

http://www.trpb.com/

It is run by the tracks, so nothing more than self-policing. There is a tab for the "TOTE SECURITY SYSTEM"...when you go there it is "under construction". There is very little information on the entire site and there isn't a single entry about anything being investigated...past or present. Not one iota. No transparency, no trust. Why should we?

Remember this thread?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...d.php?t=107314

We NEVER got the story. Again, why should we trust they are looking out for us. The track told them couldn't give the info out so they couldn't...again, self-policing.

[cj]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Shame no one has responded to my previous challenge to keep track of how many betdowns win and what the roi is. Well, maybe ya'll are working on the code to automate it

Why don't you do it?

[dasch]

Originally Posted by cj

Remember this thread?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...d.php?t=107314

We NEVER got the story. Again, why should we trust they are looking out for us. The track told them couldn't give the info out so they couldn't...again, self-policing.

I don't have many posts because I rarely have much time, but I was involved in that one in 2013 and here we are all these years later....

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

For Track Phantom, who doesn't believe people can win at this game long term.

What are your thoughts on the teams and star individuals who went and conquered Hong Kong racing?

And if you think they are bonafide, how are the CRW teams purportedly here in the US much different? Because you seem to believe they would be incapable of being long term winners without some sort of illegality going on somewhere down the line.

Were the guys in Hong Kong not on the up and up?

Hong Kong was/is supposedly a bastion of CLEAN racing. Surely they wouldn't have stood for these computer teams stealing money from their racing public.

So they must have been legit, correct?

And if they are/were legit, this goes against your notion that it's virtually impossible to beat this game long term legitimately.

Unless of course it's somehow legit to do it in Hong Kong, but not legit to do it here, for some reason.

No idea. Know nothing about it. Again, all caps or not, where is the proof? Have you ever peered over the shoulder of these players making their bets? Ever seen a print out of the ledger of bets? Ever talk to one of these guys? Ever see their computer program or what kind of algorithms are being used?

Let me clarify a few things:
* I do not believe past posting is what is causing the majority of the toteboard issues people have. But I believe it is highly possible, even borderline probable that something like this occurs. I draw this conclusion by combining the fact that Sam Houston still has box TV's from 1992 to display their races and it is 2018 and technological security has been breached from organizations that spend BILLIONS (with a B) on it. To think that there is NO WAY it is happening is downright imbecilic. Having said that, I think the odds fluctuation are not likely due to past posting or cancellations of bets. The changing of odds happens too quickly for the alterations to have taken effect.

* I do think there are players that have a major edge over others but do not believe there is an algorithm that does the work for you. That is something, after spending 32 years reading and studying this game like a crazy man, that I find improbable. However, I'm all ears and eyes to some proof to back up the "don't ya think" or "how hard is it to believe" arguments being pushed forward.

* I think cheating in horse racing is rampant in a variety of areas and most notably in the methods used to get performance from horses

* I think the integrity oversight is criminal but understandable. The money isn't there to self-police and negatively impact handle.

Having said all of that, I still love the game. It's like a girlfriend that was once beautiful but has now eaten herself into a pear-shaped shell of the girl I met. I still see her as she once was. I still love the game for what it once was and while I may not put the screws to her as often as I once did, and maybe our relationship is a little more intellectual and less passionate, I wouldn't trade it for anything else.

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Do you all get it now? Finally?

You guys think it's actually happening, AND it's all out in the open for all to see!!!

So it's bank robbery, in broad daylight, and nobody is getting caught....

Two words for you....Jorge Navarro

[jay68802]

Earlier today I posted a idea about taking a computer to the track and trying to past post through you ADW. I have tried this a Churchiil, I have tried it at Keeneland, it does not work. I have tried to past post while at the track, once we were able to get a bet in after the gates opened. It just does not happen. Could there be a way to hack into the tote system and do it? Maybe, but then the problem becomes, you can't bet too much, or you be found out. And if you keep doing it to often, you will be found out.

As for PA's thinking that the teams are creating a pool with fixed odd's. In a way they are. They will not know the odds exactly, but it will be close. When you control the money, in this game, you can control the odds. The game we are playing is not a para-mutual game any more. We are wagering against two groups that have a edge, because not only do they control the odds, they control the participants in each race.

The other advantage they have is pool manipulation. This happened at Gulfstream in the 10th race on March 9th. When they loaded the gate the 6 had 54.69% of a $132,973 pool. The last dump was completely different. 54.01% of the money was put on the 2 and the 3. Can you say Dutch. The 2 won. $22,957 of the $39,638 of the last pool focused on two horses. While the 6 received only $6,186. The money does not lie here, the public was swindled. The 6 looked every bit the part of a 4/5. Not a 6-1. Yes, they are good handicappers, but a computer, even in this day and age, still can not take all, the known variables, even if they have the most accurate information in the world, and be this accurate. This game still has way more unknown factors, that can not be accounted for.

Some of those unknown's can be eliminated in one way. Inside information. Read the minutes of the CHRB meeting I posted. The CHRB knows exactly who they are, recruits and caters to them. And some will say that not even the trainer knows when a horse is going to run well. I buy that in part, but these trainers can not be so out of touch that they can say that about every horse. And a lot of the time, it might not matter if the horse runs it's race, it still might not win anyway. But it would be very nice to know that the horse will not run it's race. And would you like to know that during that last 90 day break the horse was put on a steroid program? Horse racing has banned steroids, crap, they are just considered "therapeutic medications" now, not PED's.

In the small sample I have, the CRW teams have made a small profit, but add the rebates in and that is why they do this. Tracks will pay for the teams food, and lodging on top of this. So the next time you look at your .97% ROI, be proud, you are beating this game. But also remember that you are not a "elite" customer, and the reason reason that your ROI is below 1.00 is because of the tax you have to pay so the track can keep the "elite" customers. So what is the price of integrity? It is free, but the tracks pay their elite customers not to have any.

Rant over.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

No idea. Know nothing about it. Again, all caps or not, where is the proof? Have you ever peered over the shoulder of these players making their bets? Ever seen a print out of the ledger of bets? Ever talk to one of these guys? Ever see their computer program or what kind of algorithms are being used?

Let me clarify a few things:
* I do not believe past posting is what is causing the majority of the toteboard issues people have. But I believe it is highly possible, even borderline probable that something like this occurs. I draw this conclusion by combining the fact that Sam Houston still has box TV's from 1992 to display their races and it is 2018 and technological security has been breached from organizations that spend BILLIONS (with a B) on it. To think that there is NO WAY it is happening is downright imbecilic. Having said that, I think the odds fluctuation are not likely due to past posting or cancellations of bets. The changing of odds happens too quickly for the alterations to have taken effect.

* I do think there are players that have a major edge over others but do not believe there is an algorithm that does the work for you. That is something, after spending 32 years reading and studying this game like a crazy man, that I find improbable. However, I'm all ears and eyes to some proof to back up the "don't ya think" or "how hard is it to believe" arguments being pushed forward.

* I think cheating in horse racing is rampant in a variety of areas and most notably in the methods used to get performance from horses

* I think the integrity oversight is criminal but understandable. The money isn't there to self-police and negatively impact handle.

Having said all of that, I still love the game. It's like a girlfriend that was once beautiful but has now eaten herself into a pear-shaped shell of the girl I met. I still see her as she once was. I still love the game for what it once was and while I may not put the screws to her as often as I once did, and maybe our relationship is a little more intellectual and less passionate, I wouldn't trade it for anything else.

I suggest you read about the Hong Kong teams. There's a decent amount of talk about them both on here and elsewhere on the web. I'm surprised you know nothing about this.

You've never heard of Bill Benter?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by jay68802

Yes, they are good handicappers, but a computer, even in this day and age, still can not take all, the known variables, even if they have the most accurate information in the world, and be this accurate. This game still has way more unknown factors, that can not be accounted for.

Come on man. I posted this yesterday in the VIP forum:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

6:11 PM Will Rogers Race 10 7/2
6:11 PM Will Rogers Race 10 4/1
6:11 PM Will Rogers Race 10 4/1

This was pretty cool.



I posted a cold $1,800 Trifecta.

And I suck.

Imagine what an actual competent handicapper with a high IQ can accomplish.

This game is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO beatable, it's not even funny.

I can't do it...yet...but I'm getting closer...but I've taken quite a number of steps backwards lately.

Imagine what a team of really, really intelligent people with a lot of money can accomplish.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Why wouldn't I be OK with it? It's a free country.

I think it's a very persuasive argument. It's one thing when something hidden is revealed (like the Pick 6 scandal). It's another thing when potential evidence is there every single day for all to see.

"Potential evidence" was also there to see when trainer Juan Carlos Guerrero burst upon the horse racing scene, and quickly elevated himself from total obscurity to being the most proficient trainer in the entire country. Do you remember HIM? He had at least 40% winners in every single training category imaginable, and was winning at a 43% clip with his newly-claimed horses...while the horses who were claimed AWAY from him were winning only at a 3% clip in their next start for their new connections. Does "potential evidence" get any more clear-cut than that? And...what did the racing industry do with this obvious "evidence"? NOTHING! Senior Guerrero was allowed to ply his trade unmolested...and when he was finally suspended, it was because he groped a female employee of the Parx secretary's office.

Who cares if there is "potential evidence there every day for all to see"...when the game's officials are looking the OTHER way?

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by cj

Why don't you do it?

Been doing it for decades, a better question would be why don't I stop.

Seriously, you'd think the folks making unsubstantiated claims would be anxious for proof.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Been doing it for decades, a better question would be why don't I stop.

Don't keep us in suspense...what have you found?

[cj]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Been doing it for decades, a better question would be why don't I stop.

Seriously, you'd think the folks making unsubstantiated claims would be anxious for proof.

We're all ears.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Don't keep us in suspense...what have you found?

I've found that when people blame outside forces for why they lose, they are doomed.

Even if they are RIGHT about it.