Mutual Pools versus casino and online wagering sites

[bisket]

I’m curious how many Pace Advantage members who wager on horse racing also like betting in casinos and online sports betting. Most people who find out I enjoy wagering on horse racing think I like other types of gambling. They are surprised when I tell them I don’t wager on other things because I have better chance of winning money in a mutual pool. Then when I explain the difference between wagering into a mutual pool and casino gambling they understand why.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by bisket

I’m curious how many Pace Advantage members who wager on horse racing also like betting in casinos and online sports betting. Most people who find out I enjoy wagering on horse racing think I like other types of gambling. They are surprised when I tell them I don’t wager on other things because I have better chance of winning money in a mutual pool. Then when I explain the difference between wagering into a mutual pool and casino gambling they understand why.

I thought all casinos were parimutuel these days.

Are there still casinos that are non-parimutuel?

[PaceAdvantage]

Think he's talking horse racing versus going into a casino to play cards etc vs betting online like FanDual or online casinos

Basically horse racing vs other forms of gambling

[bisket]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Think he's talking horse racing versus going into a casino to play cards etc vs betting online like FanDual or online casinos

Basically horse racing vs other forms of gambling

Yeah casino gambling like slots

[Frost king]

Never really had much interest in other forms of casino gambling. But do occasionally enjoy the odd game of craps in a casino setting. The most exciting game when the shooter is on a roll.

[bisket]

Originally Posted by Frost king

Never really had much interest in other forms of casino gambling. But do occasionally enjoy the odd game of craps in a casino setting. The most exciting game when the shooter is on a roll.

Mutual pools attract skilled calculating gamblers, but sometimes you just have to go for it. I think you have to have both personality traits to be successful. For me that’s what has been a successful formula.

[green80]

mutual pools are the only ones that won't cut you off for winning

[Robert Fischer]

Dice sounds more fun, but never tried it (other than some stuff in my kitchen with some bad people).

Played a lot of cards as a child, but dropped out of that a long time ago.

Originally Posted by Frost king

Never really had much interest in other forms of casino gambling. But do occasionally enjoy the odd game of craps in a casino setting. The most exciting game when the shooter is on a roll.

I'm the same here.

Years ago I went to the Meadows Racetrack/Casino and I signed up 'rewards card' + given $10 free play.

For whatever reason, the slots didn't hit the reward-centers of my brain.

ended up giving $2.50 or whatever was left on the card to my father.

was boring and disconnected.

didn't feel any merit or skill participation vibes

Wanted to get out of the Casino,
and go to the simulcast area to handicap horses

[Poindexter]

I think for the majority of gamblers it probably doesn’t matter where they gamble the results will be the same. At least in terms of winning and losing obviously the velocity of losing will vary by the game. That being said using skill to attain an edge, whether the edge is perceived or actual brings a whole lot of appeal to the racing game. One can make the same argument in sports betting, poker etc. You play these casino games and you know over time there is a 100 percent chance you lose. I just cannot motivate myself to get into that. It is just so pointless. Now I may ultimately go to my grave realizing that is all sort of pointless for me at least, but as long as I am breathing my energies are 100 percent focussed on games there is a chance I can beat them long term. To me that is poker, racing and sports betting.

Of the 3 I just find racing the most appealing. I love the handicapping aspect. As a kid I loved watching sports, as an adult it just doesn’t do it for me. I do enjoy nba basketball but more as a means to making money than the thrill of the games. As far as casino games, I live in Vegas so I will on occasion may play them. Blackjack is my game of choice if I am going to casino gamble and they better pay 3/2 for blackjack. Never saw the appeal of dice, my father loved craps when he was alive. He was a big fan of hot tables in craps and lucky seats in table games. I am too logical for all that but he was convinced. He always gambled for fun (small stakes) and he could afford it so it really did not matter I still haven’t sit down at a blackjack table since I moved to Vegas. I will dabble on the lower stakes machines. I just know I have a much better chance of winning playing poker. Either live or online. So to answer the op I just have a hard time playing casino games when advantage gambling is available to me (even if I may not personally be gambling at an advantage).

[burnsy]

I don’t know much about casino gaming other than Black Jack . But the key for any real gambler is knowing strengths and weaknesses. Then outright admitting it and sticking to it . I have a knack for horse racing . I can do well on the biggest days and Saratoga but not all the time . Horse racing is very hard and very unpredictable. If you slump it can be an extended deal . And boy , once you’re humbled like that the bad decisions pile up. My strength is Professional Football. I know the game really well and I can see what it takes . The other thing is I know the discipline to find the mismatched games. I’m talking about zeroing in on about 3 or 4 games a week . If I lose early that week . I’m done , I don’t “chase”. I’ve been doing this for years , when it was illegal I had a local bookie . He was a friend and he came to value my opinion . He knew I wasn’t like most customers. Now , I have Draftkings. After the first deposit, I’ve not made another since . The other thing I do is if I don’t like the spread I’ll parlay Money line bets . Believe me, it doesn’t work every week nothing does with gambling . But more weeks than not you can cash those if you know what your doing . And you gotta ignore most of the chatter on TV . Ex players and fans are the worst .
Some weeks I might like one game but that’s all it takes .

[Half Smoke]

.

I believe that in comparing racing betting to sports betting re the most common bets -

it should not be ignored that the takeout in racing on a win bet - averaging somewhere around 17% is much, much greater than that of a sports book on the most common against the spread bets

the sportsbooks will hold 4.55% from all ats bets and will take just 9.1% from the winner which is why you hear so often "bet 11 to win 10"

the takeout in racing is almost double what it is in sports betting on the most common bets

this means that comparing 2 experienced and knowledgeable bettors - one in racing - and on in sports betting the fact is _________

plain and simple - it's just much easier to be a long term winner in sports betting

I think many horseplayers here and elsewhere have a love for racing and that's why they don't concentrate on sports betting where they would have a much greater chance of being long term winners


even so, not many will achieve it in sports betting - but imo the % will be much higher than in racing


.

[lefty359]

When I was younger I liked to play BJ and Craps.
Now they have ruined BJ and I can no longer stand at a crap table.
I had to give up sports betting because I was lousy at it and besides horses pay better.

[thaskalos]

Sports betting is the much better gambling option, IMO...for me anyway. I started as a passionate horseplayer, and I initially thought that nothing could compare to the intrigue of handicapping and betting on the thoroughbreds...but I was wrong. Betting on sports is just as exciting to me...and the workload is considerably less. An added bonus is that I don't feel that I have been "robbed" when I bet on sports...which is the distinct feeling that I get when betting on the horses. In sports betting I don't get the feeling that I am operating at some sort of "informational disadvantage".

When I hear people saying that handicapping sports is hard, all I can do is shake my head in disbelief. Nothing is "easy", of course...but nothing can compare with the difficulty of profitably handicapping the thoroughbreds. If the horseplayers dedicated even a fraction of the time that they have spent analyzing horses to analyzing sports teams, then they would see that handicapping sports is the much easier, and the more profitable endeavor.

[tbwinner]

From 2009 to 2013 I put quite a bit thru the mutuel windows. Owned horses during that time period too. Never was a long term winner and honestly didn't put much effort into becoming one, but had a lot of scores and swings.

Visited casinos off and on over the years but went to Vegas first in 2016. Was hooked and that's where a lot of my gambling dollars went since then.

I will always love racing but won't put the $$ and time I used to put in. Between short fields, more alleged cheaters/abuse, odds changes, CAWs etc... It's not as attractive as it once was.

Yeah if you have an edge you can maybe beat the 17%+ take but I don't have an edge. So my gambling $ went to video poker, blackjack, craps over those Vegas trips. Had some winning trips, even trips, and horrendous trips(even flew home early one day blowing my trip bankroll the first night), but got a lot more value from my $$ than racing could provide.

With close to optimal play and finding good rules(such as video poker payables) the edge can be 2-4% or less. Add in comp rooms, meals and drinks based on your play and it becomes a cheap vacation...if you were gonna gamble anyway and can control yourself.

All that being said I am making it a point to get back to Keeneland, Oaklawn, Saratoga and Gulfstream the next 5 years as well as finally Santa Anita and or Del Mar. But I definitely won't be putting more than a few $100 thru the windows when I do

[LemonSoupKid]

The last few posts, and most on the thread, have been very accurate. I think the only reason to play thoroughbreds is because you love the racing, the challenge (how difficult it is to win), and the surroundings and camaraderie to it. In that sense it is a venue like a casino, of course, and you can make days of entertainment out of it with good friends. Of course, when you are also a sports bettor, as thaskalos and others have pointed out, you realize how scammy the game is and historically has been due to many factors but mostly government interference. What's funny is that so far you guys have only pointed out WPS track take, which is at best 15% and has hovered from 17-20% through the years. Horizontals, which I like to play, get as bad as 24% for the pick 4. If you are any good at all, and can hit a pick 4, you can probably hit the pick 5 which is much more appetizing from take and ultimate payout points of view, with the pick 6 getting exponentially harder and/or more expensive - especially if you aren't a real degenerate and pick your spots going to a particular track or simulcast weekly.

I can probably tell you all more about sports betting, and the particularities of each sport. I certainly know the mathematics of all of this, and have seen all parts of the industry from multiple sides. Let me just say that I win betting sports, but I wouldn't make it that much of a catch all, "sports" is too generic (certain people win at various sports and lose at others). Someone will have sports he is good at, or models, and perhaps even for a time. When you compare a -110 standard to horse racing, horse racing is relatively criminal and nearly impossible to beat without a major edge/inside information.

Since more people, and thus more average or below average people, whose egos are high in things like sports (they think they know a lot, like most things in life), I would bet there are more losers in general than racing. I recall seeing a stat a long time ago that said that 91% of people playing the horses lose. Again, quantifying that is hard, and I think the more realistic or accurate thing to do would be to observe people over set periods of time. I find this more accurate particularly because of the entertainment aspect of betting is silly to divorce from the whole thing, and it would be hard to follow a small number of emotionless "grinders" who bet sports or are runners. For those few, it truly is a job.

Here's the biggest issue with all of this, and it comes down to lobbying/politics/surveillance. In other words, what is acceptable in society, and to what degree. The largest, most liquid, and least tracked (of course still tracked) markets are by far equities markets. What's more, politicians have lobbied that not only are these normalized to make money in, their tax treatment is far better, if you are any sort of wealthier person in a country like the USA. For various reasons, I know quite a bit about these as well, as I presume many of you do. If you are a successful or intelligent person otherwise, you are going to play this game more frequently, not the more quickly settled or "entertaining" world of sports. But it really has little to nothing to do with what it is or that it's accepted (and "gambling" isn't), it has to do with the first sentence of this paragraph and the banking system. For heaven's sake, we just recently got the rules changed in racing regarding the 300-1 and $600 thing, but that is still on the books, just like the CTR amount hasn't changed since 1970, and if you believe the BLS, our currency has devalued by 8x in that span.

I think you can all see what I'm getting at. Even if you had talent to be a "pro", the time, effort and risk of doing it isn't worth it if you are doing levels of money that aren't pure entertainment (for the little guy, for example). The only solution to this problem would be a crypto solution, but then you might have a market problem, as mentioned above, where if you are a winner, they cut you off - something that also doesn't happen in equities markets for reasons of how it is structured.

All in all, I look at gambling as a challenge, and entertainment that you can have good experiences here and there with friends over the years to create memories. As is the case with life, the wins are more satisfying when you are aware that most lose, you have lost before, and thus winning is not easy. There's a good side, in a sense, to losing. I always tell people, like that famous gambler said, you have to know how to win and also know how to lose.

Hope you enjoyed the post.