TOC Responds To My Email About Premier Turf Club

[trying2win]

I sent an email recently to Drew Couto of TOC. One of the questions I asked was about why they granted permission to a rebate shop like LINK2BET.COM to carry CALIFORNIA FAIR circuit and Del Mar races, but wouldn't grant the same permission to Premier Turf Club. Here's a large part of the response I got:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It really is a shame that offshore, unregulated outfits somehow manage to entice honest players to engage in illegal wagering activity. By that I mean, if you are a CA resident, and LINK2BET.com has opened an account for you, it would -- in essence -- be enabling you place illegal wagers as defined by CA law. Not only are such wagers illegal, but the act of simply advertising such wagers is illegal, and further exposes that company to criminal liability in this state.

Let me assure you that TOC has not authorized LINK2BET.com to accept wagers on any CA TB races, including Del Mar. Therefore, asserting that TOC is discriminating against Premier is inaccurate. Since LINK2BET.com is not an approved wagering site, every time it accepts a wager on a CA TB race it is misappropriating the property of the CA racing industry. That act is in effect a theft, analogous to the illegal download of music, the unlawful copying of movies, etc.

As for the issue of rebating in general, I disagree with you, but very much do appreciate your perspective.

From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues.

On the other hand, when rebates are made available only to those who wager significant amounts -- greater than $1 million/year -- they arguably serve as "volume discounts," warranted by play. However, when they are made available by those who do not contribute to the pools, to any player regardless of size of play, then they simply serve as a means to redirect needed revenues away from the industry, and undercut the regulated pricing mechanism by which the industry is funded, and must operate.

This debate obviously has two sides. You are most welcome to come by, sit down, and go over the issues and facts in more detail. Your interest in our views is very much appreciated!"

Regards,

Drew J. Couto
President
Thoroughbred Owners of California
dcouto@toconline.com
(626) 574-6620

------------------------------------------------------------------------

--Any comments from PA members?

[BillW]

Originally Posted by trying2win

Let me assure you that TOC has not authorized LINK2BET.com to accept wagers on any CA TB races, including Del Mar. Therefore, asserting that TOC is discriminating against Premier is inaccurate.

This is logic I've seen used in "Off Topic" before.

As for the issue of rebating in general, I disagree with you, but very much do appreciate your perspective.

From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues.

He doesn't understand paramutuel wagering and is confusing stories he has heard about off shore rebate shops that coattail onto successful bettors only, thus having the effect that he describes. A "rebate" from a domestic ADW is essentially lowering the takeout and there is no way that lowering takeout can "artificially reduce payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools."

On the other hand, when rebates are made available only to those who wager significant amounts -- greater than $1 million/year -- they arguably serve as "volume discounts," warranted by play. However, when they are made available by those who do not contribute to the pools, to any player regardless of size of play, then they simply serve as a means to redirect needed revenues away from the industry, and undercut the regulated pricing mechanism by which the industry is funded, and must operate.

Odd train of thought switch. He is confused about the difference between a US based ADW and an off shore outfit.

I'm not familiar with this guy. Is he just a political appointee? He seems to be parroting things he has heard but doesn't really understand how they relate.

[BillW]

T2W,

Maybe his reply seemed odd to me because I didn't read the question that you asked. I assumed that you were asking about PTC and only parenthetically mentioned the LINK2BET offshore. Rereading it, it seems that he is justifying not dealing with offshore outfits and his response has nothing to do with domestic ADW's (with the exception of the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph).

Bill

[rrbauer]

So, is he saying that TOC members are turning down handle from large-volume bettors or anyone that they perceive to have an advantage over the general population?

The only way for horseplayers to counter this arrogance is to withhold their business from any racetrack that is affiliated with the TOC (read: California).

Do you see TOC-affiliated racetracks doing anything that is remotely in the horseplayers best interests? Like reducing takeout? Like revamping breakage? Like refusing to participate in races with 4- and 5-horse fields? TOC takes its cues from OPEC. Next time you play a carryover at Hollywood (or other Calif track) these are the guys that are getting your handle.

You may not have a lot of choices about putting gasoline in your car, but you have plenty of choices about where you bet your money (except when the feds get involved and tell you where you can't bet YOUR MONEY).

[trying2win]

In my opinion, Mr. Couto's email is a typical example of self-serving, Neanderthal-type thinking from a misguided person about the subject of rebates. I surmise from his words, that he suffers from poverty-consciousness, instead of the prosperity-consciousness angle. Plus, a little bit of bafflegab interspersed amongst his ramblings about rebates.

The way he's talking, makes it seem I live in California and that I should drop by his office to discuss some things with him...lol. Hello Drew!...the .ca behind my email address indicates I'm from Canada, not California.

One thing I don't understand. LINK2BET has been offering wagering on the CALIFORNIA FAIR circuit this year. LINK2BET sends bets to the host track's parimutuel system. Common sense tells me that the bets wouldn't have gone through to the CALIFORNIA FAIR tracks parimutuel pools, if they didn't have permission from someone in California. So, how can he say that TOC never gave LINK2BET permission to offer bets for the CALIFORNIA FAIR circuit? I'm stumped.

By the way, Drew...how about the rebates that horseplayers get from HPI for betting on the California races? Are you going to try and get their contract cancelled for that? Also, Drew... I saw during the last Santa Anita meet, either at the Santa Anita website or the XPRESS BET website (probably at the XPRESS bet site), where they were offering a 1 % cash rebate to bettors on Santa Anita races. I remember seeing them use an example "If you bet $20000 over the meet, we'll add $200 to your account". Are you going to try and cancel the XPRESS BET contract for the next Santa Anita race meet for them offering that rebate as well?

In conclusion, it seems Mr. Couto is full of baloney and hypocrisy on his views of cash rebates. Plus, I think he needs to take a course in Economics 101. Here's some more advice...I think he should revisit that great universal law..."YOU HAVE TO GIVE BEFORE YOU RECEIVE".

T2W

[Premier Turf Club]

I thank Trying2Win for at least eliciting a response, something no else was able to do..."I won't even talk about why I won't talk about it."

"It really is a shame that offshore, unregulated outfits somehow manage to entice honest players to engage in illegal wagering activity. By that I mean, if you are a CA resident, and LINK2BET.com has opened an account for you, it would -- in essence -- be enabling you place illegal wagers as defined by CA law. Not only are such wagers illegal, but the act of simply advertising such wagers is illegal, and further exposes that company to criminal liability in this state.

Yeah, OK Drew. But every California player I know has an account with an off-shore bookmaker because you don't allow your residents to sign up with a LEGAL alternative. All your policies have done is drive handle to those types of places. Here's a thought, why don't you try to give people a legal alternative like the other 49 states (OK, maybe not 49 but ANYWHERE else where account wagering is allowed rebating is permissible).

Let me assure you that TOC has not authorized LINK2BET.com to accept wagers on any CA TB races, including Del Mar. Therefore, asserting that TOC is discriminating against Premier is inaccurate. Since LINK2BET.com is not an approved wagering site, every time it accepts a wager on a CA TB race it is misappropriating the property of the CA racing industry. That act is in effect a theft, analogous to the illegal download of music, the unlawful copying of movies, etc.

Congratulations, you at least managed to mention Premier once. You didn't answer Trying2Win's question, of course but you at least used the word Premier without bursting into flames. For the record, I have no experience with Link2Bet, good, bad or indifferent. Now who they are, or why they may or may not have TOC approval has anything to do with us, I have no idea.

As for the issue of rebating in general, I disagree with you, but very much do appreciate your perspective.

From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues.

What evidence do you sight? Everything I read has been to the contrary. Let's try an example using California takes. Starting with a $100 bankroll if you lose just the take (16%) betting to win each race you'll bust out in 20 races having bet a total of $522. BUT, by providing a 5% rebate on all wagers (i.e. decreasing the effective take from 16% to 11%) a player can make that bankroll last through 33 races and churn $784. That's about a 50% increase over the amount wagered with no rebate. If you do the math, those rebate dollars generated a churn rate of 594% (increase in handle / total rebates). Every study I've seen has found about the same chrun rate. And again, California players, actually players throughout the US can get that rebate any time they want to. All they need to do is sign up with an off-shore bookmaker.

On the other hand, when rebates are made available only to those who wager significant amounts -- greater than $1 million/year -- they arguably serve as "volume discounts," warranted by play. However, when they are made available by those who do not contribute to the pools, to any player regardless of size of play, then they simply serve as a means to redirect needed revenues away from the industry, and undercut the regulated pricing mechanism by which the industry is funded, and must operate.

So you're saying that anyone that wagers less than a million annually isn't entitled to anything. Serious players that simply can't afford to wager that much get nothing? It's hard to believe given the low regard you have for your customers that you have any at all. Just wait a little bit, and you won't. This is the attitude we've gotten throughout the industry. You forgot to add the phrase "...THOSE kinds of players are degenerates. They'll bet no matter what the takeout." I hear that one a lot too. And for the record, we DO give volume discounts. Our schedules are scaled based upon wagering level. We just think that all our players deserve something back and don't mind sharing a cut of our gross with them. After all they make the mare go, no?

This debate obviously has two sides. You are most welcome to come by, sit down, and go over the issues and facts in more detail. Your interest in our views is very much appreciated!"

I'm sure Trying2Win is going to take you up on that the next time he makes the 2000 mile trip from his home to Canada. I know it never really occurred to you that he's too far away to just "drop in." I know, everything in between New York and California is simply flyover country.




Of course, I'm very disappointed that you never had the time to think of an answer to Trying2Win's question about us. It's a good thing we have some people on the inside that tell us what's REALLY going on.

Perhaps you should come up with something better just in case you get deposed.



------------------------------------------------------------------------

--Any comments from PA members?[/QUOTE]

[ezrabrooks]

BillW,

I respect passion, whether I agree with it or not. While I do not agree with your take on the laws and actions of those in charge in the State of California, I respect PTC's desire to do business there..and your support thereof. Your in Texas..right? A place where every account wager breaks Texas law. Why don't you direct your passion to changing the situation in Texas, and leave California, and those who want to do business there, to the people involved. Let's get our own house in order before throwing rocks at the West Coast.

Ez

[parlay]

"From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues."

completely parrots the company line espoused
by WEG, all the presentations they have made
at indusrty gatherings push this mindset.

With regards to the "points" programs and
minimal cash rebates offered by these same
organizations.There seems to be an acceptable
threshold, around 1%, that you can give back
to the degenerates. My observation though is
these programs are just another way to creat
overpaid jobs for insiders family members.
The most economical way of reducing takeout
is to reduce the takeout! I HOPE THIS IS A
LIGHTBULB MOMENT FOR SOMEONE

[cj]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

BillW,

I respect passion, whether I agree with it or not. While I do not agree with your take on the laws and actions of those in charge in the State of California, I respect PTC's desire to do business there..and your support thereof. Your in Texas..right? A place where every account wager breaks Texas law. Why don't you direct your passion to changing the situation in Texas, and leave California, and those who want to do business there, to the people involved. Let's get our own house in order before throwing rocks at the West Coast.

Ez

He is not in Texas. I simple visit to the home page will answer that question.

[prospector]

"From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues."

i can only look at my own daily bets to answer that..before pinnacle threw us out, i was averaging around $40-60 daily...after pinnacle, i did $20 plus daily on brisbet...now with Premiere i'm running in excess of $80 daily..even betting, of all things..harness racing
for me, rebates work..and i will NOT bet without them..
no delmar for me this year..not even at the local track
they control their signal...i control my wallet

[ezrabrooks]

Originally Posted by cj

He is not in Texas. I simple visit to the home page will answer that question.

Oh...I guess the "Location - Houston" threw me.

Ez

[Premier Turf Club]

Originally Posted by prospector

"From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues."

I'm sure the above quote reflects Drew's feelings about rebaters. It certainly reflects the sentiments of most track owners. But when it comes to Premier Turf Club, WE know the REAL reason we got turned down, and the TOC KNOWS WE know the REAL reason. It's one thing to bluff when there's still a chance no one will call you on it. But once the last card is dealt and you know all you've got is a busted straight and your opponent goes "all-in"...

Drew, you willing to "call" with the hand that you've got because we're prepared to go "all in."

[pic6vic]

Just a note on this subject. If TOC and the rest of the industry does not do anything regarding take out or rebates, come Jan when my subscription to DRF runs out I will stop playing the races. I will be 62 later this year and I have been playing since Carryback won the derby(1961). i love the game. That said if PTC is not allowed to take the major tracks including Calif I am finished. I am not a big bettor, but if I told youwhat I bet at Pinnacle last year no one would be believe me. It goes with what Ian said about the churn factor. I am hoping they come to their senses. I know there are others that feel the same way. I have no solution, except to hope that PTC is able to take these tracks.

Good luck

[rrbauer]

Originally Posted by pic6vic

Just a note on this subject. If TOC and the rest of the industry does not do anything regarding take out or rebates, come Jan when my subscription to DRF runs out I will stop playing the races. I will be 62 later this year and I have been playing since Carryback won the derby(1961). i love the game. That said if PTC is not allowed to take the major tracks including Calif I am finished. I am not a big bettor, but if I told youwhat I bet at Pinnacle last year no one would be believe me. It goes with what Ian said about the churn factor. I am hoping they come to their senses. I know there are others that feel the same way. I have no solution, except to hope that PTC is able to take these tracks.

Good luck

I would believe you Vic because I KNOW how much you bet! Isn't it strange that since the Feds got involved and started screwing with what we can do with our money and interfering with where we can transfer our money that handle at US racetracks in total has DROPPED. Based on what the suits at the tracks and the miscellaneous other mucky-mucks were putting out you would've thought that the handle would've shown nice increases.

Not so, and I think a lot of players like Vic (and myself) have just had enough of this game where the third partner in the racetrack, horse owner, horseplayer triangle continues to suck hind tit.

[BillW]

Originally Posted by ezrabrooks

BillW,

I respect passion, whether I agree with it or not. While I do not agree with your take on the laws and actions of those in charge in the State of California, I respect PTC's desire to do business there..and your support thereof. Your in Texas..right? A place where every account wager breaks Texas law. Why don't you direct your passion to changing the situation in Texas, and leave California, and those who want to do business there, to the people involved. Let's get our own house in order before throwing rocks at the West Coast.

Ez

Where in hell did you get all of that? I was simply commenting on what appeared to be a confused answer to T2W's inquiry. BTW, Youbet, what used to be AmericaTAB and PTC have been accepting accounts in Tx. from day one.