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Old 03-23-2017, 05:16 PM   #46
proximity
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peppermint patty needs a ride (part 2).....

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ok poker fans we are back at the amazing bally's in frigid atlantic city!!

when we last left off i lost with KK and JJ in back to back hands and there was a riot in the wild west section of the casino.

with a fraternity/bachelor party group on my (mr big shot diamond member) floor i didn't expect to get much sleep but surprisingly i never heard a peep out of them.

instead at 5:00 am i am awoken by a peppermint patty sounding girl in the room next door telling her life story to some hapless chump on her cell phone.

peppermint patty doesn't want to be in a relationship with charlie brown. instead she wants to travel for work and have sex with lots of other guys is the cliffs notes.

when i hear this i think about getting up and knocking on her door but with the way i'm running in this godforsaken city she'd probably be bigger and uglier than the average lineman on the colts.

instead i drift back to sleep for a few hours before heading downstairs for a nice breakfast at johnny rockets.

on the way back to the room i stop at the check in counter and surprise, surprise; bally's CAN take the charge off my credit card and apply my reward credits!!

so the morning's going well and my play now is to sleep a few more hours before heading down to the poker room to avenge last night's loss to those high hand chasing donkeys.

at 9:00 though peppermint patty gets another call.

apparently charlie brown's abandoned her here in atlantic city and she needs a ride back to.... newark??

sigh....
ok poker fans, we're back at bally's where i make my way down to the card room for a long session of stimulating 246 limit play.

i start out the contest raising with JJ but picking right up where we left off just last night my jacks are AGAIN beaten by a rivered gutshot.

certainly i'm a jinxed player but i vow to stay in the game and try to do my best and enjoy the day. eventually i rally to get back ahead but my lead is short lived as i lose with two sets in five minutes.

with AA in the small blind i three bet after an older woman raises from middle position. i beat her hand but another player between us (who cold called her raise with A4 off) gets three fours to beat me.

with T9 in the big blind i see a flop of A94 which checks to the button. i (correctly) sense weakness and call but probably should've raised. instead i suddenly lead out when a second four hits the turn. i'm a little worried when the CUTOFF calls this bet...... but i'm still beating his pocket fives.... UNTIL A FIVE COMES ON THE RIVER.

the game is very frustrating to me because i often play 10+ hour sessions and NEVER see these hands hit after i fold them. when i fold 64 though i scold myself when a flop of 642 comes on the board and gets a bet, a raise, and several calls from the field.

another player however, who played Q2 off, hangs in to see a queen on the turn and another two on the river for good measure and i pat myself on the back for yet another good fold.

my big blind comes around but there's an open seat on my right. the player on my left suddenly gets up and moves to this seat, so i'm still under the gun and look down at AA.

flop: 876

big blind: T9

thirty minutes later i again have AA against the very same player who is in with 83.

flop: J 8 2

turn: 2

river: 8.

searching the pinelands for the jersey devil, giving peppermint patty a ride back to newark, or playing 246 limit hold em at bally's?

i'm not sure which of those options is the best way to spend a saturday.... but i'm convinced that playing 246 is the worst.

thank you for reading.

game -82 (246)
year -1115 (22-22)
promo 0 (160)

Last edited by proximity; 03-23-2017 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:01 PM   #47
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ok poker fans, we're back at bally's where i make my way down to the car5d room for a long session of stimulating 246 limit play.

i start out the contest raising with JJ but picking right up where we left off just last night my jacks are AGAIN beaten by a rivered gutshot.

certainly i'm a jinxed player but i vow to stay in the game and try to do my best and enjoy the day. eventually i rally to get back ahead but my lead is short lived as i lose with two sets in five minutes.

with AA in the small blind i three bet after an older woman raises from middle position. i beat her hand but another player between us (who cold called her raise with A4 off) gets three fours to beat me.

with T9 in the big blind i see a flop of A94 which checks to the button. i (correctly) sense weakness and call but probably should've raised. instead i suddenly lead out when a second four hits the turn. i'm a little worried when the CUTOFF calls this bet...... but i'm still beating his pocket fives.... UNTIL A FIVE COMES ON THE RIVER.

the game is very frustrating to me because i often play 10+ hour sessions and NEVER see these hands hit after i fold them. when i fold 64 though i scold myself when a flop of 642 comes on the board and gets a bet, a raise, and several calls from the field.

another player however, who played Q2 off, hangs in to see a queen on the turn and another two on the river for good measure and i pat myself on the back for yet another good fold.

my big blind comes around but there's an open seat on my right. the player on my left suddenly gets up and moves to this seat, so i'm still under the gun and look down at AA.

flop: 876

big blind: T9

thirty minutes later i again have AA against the very same player who is in with 83.

flop: J 8 2

turn: 2

river: 8.

searching the pinelands for the jersey devil, giving peppermint patty a ride back to newark, or playing 246 limit hold em at bally's?

i'm not sure which of those options is the best way to spend a saturday.... but i'm convinced that playing 246 is the worst.

thank you for reading.

game -82 (246)
year -1115 (22-22)
promo 0 (160)
I hear your frustration, but the dynamics are so much different in a low limit game vs. a no limit game.

For example, a healthy pre-flop race of $17-$22 is probably better than 50/50 to fold out the big blind T9. If they call, a lot of your chips are unfortunately going to go their way. Fortunately, this is made up via a significant number of hands where they miss the flop or connect poorly, thus earning you even more.

The same type of raise after the flop probably folds out 83 better than 50/50, and if not, it is very unlikely they are going to call a turn bet of something like $35-$40. All true unless they were already short-stacked, thus making them pot committed.

Leverage and/or fold equity is very small in low limit games, thus making one vulnerable to suck-out donkey plays.

In low limit, donkeys get to hold on to their money for long stretches of time. In NL, their mistakes are exponentially more costly and subject to more frequent busting out.

On a side note: While I am still studying, I decided to give up poker playing for lent. Was playing about 10+ hours a week over 1/2 nights. I'm sure when the time is up I will be anxious to return!
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:33 PM   #48
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I hear your frustration, but the dynamics are so much different in a low limit game vs. a no limit game.

For example, a healthy pre-flop race of $17-$22 is probably better than 50/50 to fold out the big blind T9. If they call, a lot of your chips are unfortunately going to go their way. Fortunately, this is made up via a significant number of hands where they miss the flop or connect poorly, thus earning you even more.
in no-limit at bally's they play 1-2 and utg i'd usually "only" open for $8 ($5 plus the size of the pot). whether or not this folds out the blinds, idk? bad beats happen. the main point of this one was that the AA was HIS hand and the T9 was MINE..... until he suddenly moved seats three seconds before the cards were dealt.

the story gets even worse believe it or not as after the game i walk back to the main casino section to relax over a nice plate of general tso's at noodle village before heading home. on my way back to the garage though i'm accosted for "some help" by a homeless player who was in the game. sadly enough when i got up his "stack" composed of a red chip, four whites and a couple crumpled up bills (one may have been a fiver) was probably bigger than mine.

only in atlantic city!!
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:46 PM   #49
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tc, you should try ac sometime!! you probably have some "free" rooms in your caesars account?
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Old 03-23-2017, 06:54 PM   #50
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One of the qualities separating the "expert" player from the merely competent one is the ability to control this "temptation" that the looser pre-flop play sometimes presents during the latter stages of the hand. The expert NL player does not abide by a set-in-stone pre-flop strategy; he reshapes his pre-flop strategy in accordance with the dynamics -- and the stack sizes -- of the game that he is participating in. What the onlooker may perceive as "undisciplined" pre-flop play may in fact be the optimal way of playing for the conditions present in the particular game at hand. The "relaxed" pre-flop play isn't just an "antidote for boredom".
Here's the thing. In theory, I can demonstrate mathematically that against bad enough players, you can increase your profits by playing looser in position (AND ONLY IN POSITION-- OUT OF POSITION YOU STILL MUST PLAY TIGHT) in a deep stacked no limit game.

Indeed, I can even demonstrate that mathematically in a limit game, though of course the advantage will be less than it is in no limit.

However, a lot of things that are theoretically true are not true in practice, because we humans have this need for instant gratification and these things called egos and all the rest.

And what actually ends up happening is as follows:

1. It is really easy to convince yourself to play hands you should fold (because of absolute hand strength, relative hand strength, or position) because you are facing bad players.

2. It is really difficult to tell the difference between +EV hands and -EV hands in a specific game situation, which feeds into (1).

3. The number of actual poker "experts" is far, far, far lower, than the number of people who think they are poker experts.

4. The gap in skill between people who style themselves poker experts and other players, when expressed in terms of the EV of a single hand, is far lower than these "experts" imagine.

5. As limon states, loosening up pre-flop puts the player into more difficult situations post-flop. Specifically, you create huge reverse implied odds for yourself, which is what happens when you are facing bets from players who have stronger ranges and you have a made hand.

Importantly, saying "experts adjust for different table conditions" (which is what you are saying) isn't an answer to this. Nobody's saying you should play a rigid table of hands pre-flop. For one thing, pretty obviously, a hand like KQ is a 3 bet against a certain type of player's raise, a call against another type of player's raise, and a fold against a third type of player's raise. There's a million examples like that.

I assure you that all the players limon called "boring" make those sorts of adjustments all the time. (Notably, one player he called boring was Tom Dwan-- if anyone is famous for making these adjustments, it's Dwan).

But the problem is with the SPECIFIC type of adjustment that goes "I'm better than these guys, so I can get away with playing a problematic hand that I otherwise would fold". Not an analysis of their ranges, or their specific exploitability, or anything else. Just "I can't beat them with my generically superior post-flop play".

And my claim (and I am sure limon's) is that players who think like that end up giving away money. Not only because the strategy itself isn't nearly as brilliant as they think it is, but because the KIND of brain that thinks like this tends to have huge discipline-leaks, whereas boring pre-flop play correlates with not having discipline leaks.

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In NL, the pot grows at a rapid pace after each round of betting...and the betting decisions get more and more critical as the hand progresses. When the player is comparatively short-stacked...then the post-flop decisions may often be considered "automatic". But even the short-stacked player can acquire a large stack during the game...and that's when the overriding importance of proper post-flop play becomes obvious. IMO...the only time when pre-flop play becomes as important as you make it sound, is when the player insists on remaining short-stacked forever...by table-hopping whenever he acquires a large stack. But, this method is hardly the preferred approach of the expert NL player.
In mathematical terms, you are looking only at magnitude and ignoring frequency.

Every X hours, a live deep stack no limit player will get into a big pot post-flop where those superior post-flop skills may make that player some significant amount of money.

Much more frequently, that same player will put smaller amounts of money into the middle. She will win some of those pots, of course, but the expected value of those bets, often made against players with stronger ranges, is likely to be negative. And some of those "smaller" amounts of money will nonetheless be quite large, due to reverse implied odds and the amount of money it costs a player to make a second best hand in a deep stack no limit game.

The player will remember the big post-flop pots won and not remember all the more frequent smaller amounts lost, because that's how human brains work (plus confirmation bias!).
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Old 03-23-2017, 08:01 PM   #51
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Here's the thing. In theory, I can demonstrate mathematically that against bad enough players, you can increase your profits by playing looser in position (AND ONLY IN POSITION-- OUT OF POSITION YOU STILL MUST PLAY TIGHT) in a deep stacked no limit game.

Indeed, I can even demonstrate that mathematically in a limit game, though of course the advantage will be less than it is in no limit.

However, a lot of things that are theoretically true are not true in practice, because we humans have this need for instant gratification and these things called egos and all the rest.

And what actually ends up happening is as follows:

1. It is really easy to convince yourself to play hands you should fold (because of absolute hand strength, relative hand strength, or position) because you are facing bad players.

2. It is really difficult to tell the difference between +EV hands and -EV hands in a specific game situation, which feeds into (1).

3. The number of actual poker "experts" is far, far, far lower, than the number of people who think they are poker experts.

4. The gap in skill between people who style themselves poker experts and other players, when expressed in terms of the EV of a single hand, is far lower than these "experts" imagine.

5. As limon states, loosening up pre-flop puts the player into more difficult situations post-flop. Specifically, you create huge reverse implied odds for yourself, which is what happens when you are facing bets from players who have stronger ranges and you have a made hand.

Importantly, saying "experts adjust for different table conditions" (which is what you are saying) isn't an answer to this. Nobody's saying you should play a rigid table of hands pre-flop. For one thing, pretty obviously, a hand like KQ is a 3 bet against a certain type of player's raise, a call against another type of player's raise, and a fold against a third type of player's raise. There's a million examples like that.

I assure you that all the players limon called "boring" make those sorts of adjustments all the time. (Notably, one player he called boring was Tom Dwan-- if anyone is famous for making these adjustments, it's Dwan).

But the problem is with the SPECIFIC type of adjustment that goes "I'm better than these guys, so I can get away with playing a problematic hand that I otherwise would fold". Not an analysis of their ranges, or their specific exploitability, or anything else. Just "I can't beat them with my generically superior post-flop play".

And my claim (and I am sure limon's) is that players who think like that end up giving away money. Not only because the strategy itself isn't nearly as brilliant as they think it is, but because the KIND of brain that thinks like this tends to have huge discipline-leaks, whereas boring pre-flop play correlates with not having discipline leaks.



In mathematical terms, you are looking only at magnitude and ignoring frequency.

Every X hours, a live deep stack no limit player will get into a big pot post-flop where those superior post-flop skills may make that player some significant amount of money.

Much more frequently, that same player will put smaller amounts of money into the middle. She will win some of those pots, of course, but the expected value of those bets, often made against players with stronger ranges, is likely to be negative. And some of those "smaller" amounts of money will nonetheless be quite large, due to reverse implied odds and the amount of money it costs a player to make a second best hand in a deep stack no limit game.

The player will remember the big post-flop pots won and not remember all the more frequent smaller amounts lost, because that's how human brains work (plus confirmation bias!).
I feel the need to remind you that this conversation between us began long ago...with your assertion that "NL holdem is primarily a pre-flop game". This is a declaration that I am sure would be refuted by 95% of the "professional-grade" NL players out there...and it has been refuted in print by practically every poker author who has ever written a "responsible" NL poker book. And yet...you have never retracted it, but you have instead chosen to provide only anecdotal evidence to support your side of the argument. To a man...every poker author that I've ever read emphasizes the overriding importance of post-flop play. Hardly anyone who has actually played NL seriously would consider post-flop play to be of lesser importance than pre-flop play, as you have done here...especially in the deeper-stacked games.

Those "difficult post-flop situations" that you mention above plague the "boring" pre-flop players too...and God help them if they lack the post-flop skills to effectively deal with them. The nature of deep-stacked NL is such that a "boring" pre-flop game won't offer you much "protection" if your post-flop game isn't up to par.
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Old 03-24-2017, 01:08 PM   #52
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I feel the need to remind you that this conversation between us began long ago...with your assertion that "NL holdem is primarily a pre-flop game". This is a declaration that I am sure would be refuted by 95% of the "professional-grade" NL players out there...and it has been refuted in print by practically every poker author who has ever written a "responsible" NL poker book. And yet...you have never retracted it, but you have instead chosen to provide only anecdotal evidence to support your side of the argument. To a man...every poker author that I've ever read emphasizes the overriding importance of post-flop play. Hardly anyone who has actually played NL seriously would consider post-flop play to be of lesser importance than pre-flop play, as you have done here...especially in the deeper-stacked games.

Those "difficult post-flop situations" that you mention above plague the "boring" pre-flop players too...and God help them if they lack the post-flop skills to effectively deal with them. The nature of deep-stacked NL is such that a "boring" pre-flop game won't offer you much "protection" if your post-flop game isn't up to par.

Limon deals with this point. The people he plays against in high and mid stakes games who actually make money "play boring" pre-flop, while a lot of people who have written poker books aren't actually winning players in cash games (and certainly don't have the winrates of the people he mentions in his post).

There's also plenty of evidence from online that the biggest winners play pretty tight. And not only is that more accurate data, but it's a much larger sample size. Live players believe a lot of old wives' tales, including many who think they are "good", because their sample sizes are so small.


As for difficult situations- in any poker game, the player with the stronger range will have the second best made hand less often. That's basically the mathematical principle behind tight play.

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Old 03-24-2017, 01:48 PM   #53
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Limon deals with this point. The people he plays against in high and mid stakes games who actually make money "play boring" pre-flop, while a lot of people who have written poker books aren't actually winning players in cash games (and certainly don't have the winrates of the people he mentions in his post).

There's also plenty of evidence from online that the biggest winners play pretty tight. And not only is that more accurate data, but it's a much larger sample size. Live players believe a lot of old wives' tales, including many who think they are "good", because their sample sizes are so small.


As for difficult situations- in any poker game, the player with the stronger range will have the second best made hand less often. That's basically the mathematical principle behind tight play.
Yes. But in the NL games...these "second-best hands" are much costlier, and can seriously damage the player...even if they occur "less often". In NL...a sound post-flop game helps you a lot more in this regard than a "boring" pre-flop strategy does...IMO.

I'm not defending all the "looser" players here, you understand...because I am on the "boring" side myself. In fact...my gambling motto has always been that "If you are not bored when you gamble...then you are playing the game WRONG". But I've crossed swords with some of these "loose/aggressive" players out there...and it hasn't been fun. And I can testify that a few of them are big winners.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:15 PM   #54
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Limon deals with this point. The people he plays against in high and mid stakes games who actually make money "play boring" pre-flop, while a lot of people who have written poker books aren't actually winning players in cash games (and certainly don't have the winrates of the people he mentions in his post).

There's also plenty of evidence from online that the biggest winners play pretty tight. And not only is that more accurate data, but it's a much larger sample size. Live players believe a lot of old wives' tales, including many who think they are "good", because their sample sizes are so small.


As for difficult situations- in any poker game, the player with the stronger range will have the second best made hand less often. That's basically the mathematical principle behind tight play.
When Limon labeled those well-known players as "boring"...was he insinuating that their post-flop play was somehow LACKING?

Because, when you say that the most important facet of NL is the pre-flop portion...then you are implying that the POST-FLOP part of the game is of less significance. And I can't quite picture Ivey, Patrik and Dwan agreeing with that.
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Old 03-24-2017, 05:20 PM   #55
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Yes. But in the NL games...these "second-best hands" are much costlier, and can seriously damage the player...even if they occur "less often". In NL...a sound post-flop game helps you a lot more in this regard than a "boring" pre-flop strategy does...IMO.

I'm not defending all the "looser" players here, you understand...because I am on the "boring" side myself. In fact...my gambling motto has always been that "If you are not bored when you gamble...then you are playing the game WRONG". But I've crossed swords with some of these "loose/aggressive" players out there...and it hasn't been fun. And I can testify that a few of them are big winners.
It's definitely no fun to play against a good LAG.

As for a "sound post-flop game", of course you want to have one. But the problem is that there's only so much you can do. Hands come up that you basically have to pay off, or have to spend a fair amount of money on finding out where you are before you can fold. (E.g., you make a call on the button with K4 suited against a bad player's raise, figuring you can outplay him in position, the flop comes KJx and the turn comes a 4. If your opponent has KJ, you may eventually get away from that hand before paying off completely if you are skilled at post-flop play, but that doesn't mean the hand isn't going to cost you a ton of money which you would have saved by not playing it.)
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Old 03-24-2017, 05:21 PM   #56
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When Limon labeled those well-known players as "boring"...was he insinuating that their post-flop play was somehow LACKING?

Because, when you say that the most important facet of NL is the pre-flop portion...then you are implying that the POST-FLOP part of the game is of less significance. And I can't quite picture Ivey, Patrik and Dwan agreeing with that.
Actually what limon says is that post-flop has the same relationship to pre-flop that late shots in a billiards game have to early shots-- one sets up the other.
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Old 03-28-2017, 06:43 AM   #57
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blood from a stone!!

ok poker fans, we last left off with yet another beating in atlantic city and i drove home with my tail between my legs. at least i lasted the whole trip, unlike our good friend the lion who tucked tail just two days in but was rewarded with some big winning sessions back at penn national while i struggled at bally's.

and after a long struggle, the lion finally got his pen rakeback but warned me that it wasn't an easy process. and (after a huge snowstorm) when i finally returned to pen, i understood what he was talking about as i had to give blood, fingerprints, my passport, social security card, driver's license, and sign about 14 different places to get my $50. i'm joking here..... kinda.

but hey, we actually got blood from the gambling stone that is penn national so it was worth it....even if we had to give a little of our own!!

so i beat a field of 2/4 novices out of $6 and collect my rakeback. an actual non-losing day!!!

when i return to penn national it's tranny night.

yes, the casino is filled with transvestites.

i get on the board early with AK and 98 and look to extend my lead with AA and QQ but of course both hands run into sets. i lose $79. meanwhile the lion (now 37-7 on the year!) pockets yet ANOTHER three digit win but picks up early mumbling something about too many trannies and seat change button hording homos for his tastes.

thank you for reading.

game +6 (2/4)
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promo 50 (210)
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Old 03-28-2017, 01:43 PM   #58
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ok poker fans, we last left off with yet another beating in atlantic city and i drove home with my tail between my legs. at least i lasted the whole trip, unlike our good friend the lion who tucked tail just two days in but was rewarded with some big winning sessions back at penn national while i struggled at bally's.

and after a long struggle, the lion finally got his pen rakeback but warned me that it wasn't an easy process. and (after a huge snowstorm) when i finally returned to pen, i understood what he was talking about as i had to give blood, fingerprints, my passport, social security card, driver's license, and sign about 14 different places to get my $50. i'm joking here..... kinda.

but hey, we actually got blood from the gambling stone that is penn national so it was worth it....even if we had to give a little of our own!!

so i beat a field of 2/4 novices out of $6 and collect my rakeback. an actual non-losing day!!!

when i return to penn national it's tranny night.

yes, the casino is filled with transvestites.

i get on the board early with AK and 98 and look to extend my lead with AA and QQ but of course both hands run into sets. i lose $79. meanwhile the lion (now 37-7 on the year!) pockets yet ANOTHER three digit win but picks up early mumbling something about too many trannies and seat change button hording homos for his tastes.

thank you for reading.

game +6 (2/4)
-79 (1/2)
year -1188 (23-23)
promo 50 (210)
Did you get any phone numbers?
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:24 PM   #59
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Did you get any phone numbers?
nah, too ugly for 'em i guess?
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Old 03-30-2017, 11:46 AM   #60
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i've got A lime green ticket......

ok poker fans, we're back with more excitement.

now i don't think i mentioned this but during my february run to penn national rakeback glory i was a lucky winner of a hotseat drawing and my prize was a lime green ticket for this month's table games sweepstakes day!!

note however that apparently i even run bad in this.

i got one ticket in my 51.73 hours of play while our good friend the lion got three in his 50.35.

good for him? uhh? not really. his uncle got twelve.

anyhow i figure i'll give it the old college try and head out for sweepstakes day but when i turn my ticket in i see people handing in big stacks of tickets several inches thick and i conclude that even the lion's uncle has little chance here with his mere dozen. apparently penn national was handing them out for stuff as common as just getting a blackjack? i guess my hotseat wasn't so hot afterall? i hear some players had hundreds of tickets and i feel like poor boy charlie bucket opening his three wonka bars versus veruca salt's 3/4 of a million.

over at poker, the room is swamped and i'm 45th on the list for 1/2 no limit hold em so i head upstairs for some racing. i like a price on a horse at aqueduct (the little guy has him second) but he runs up the track. back downstairs the lion gets in a game and i'm about to leave but when i see my name hit the bottom of the bravo screen i decide to stick it out.

eventually i'm called and get seated at the same table as the lion who is around even and checks a flop of T95 from early position.

there's a bet, a raise to $40, i fold pocket 6s and the action comes back to the lion who makes it $100. the action folds back to the $40 who makes the call and the lion shoves the turn.

villain 99
the lion 55

so a rare loss for the lion who falls to 37-8 on the season but there's still hope for me.

once again i'm pretty card dead but i stay in the game with a set of aces and a small win with J9 from the big blind.

with 99 against a $5 straddle and a limp though i make a mistake and end up paying for it.

this should be a raise to $18 but instead i just call. the straddle checks the option and we see a jack high flop with two diamonds. the limper here had J5 which is the same hand that beat the lion at borgata.... but at least he raised preflop!!

with KJ from the hijack i raise three limpers to $14. the button and two of the limpers call and we see a jack high flop with one heart. i bet $40 here and the button shoves all in for $72. the two limpers fold and i call the $32. the button has AA and the board bricks out.

if i just call with aces in a situation like that i'm a loser every time. "they" just call, however, and everything right down to the jack high flop goes their way.

as for the drawings?



game -200 (1/2)
year -1388 (23-24)
promo 0 (210)
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