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06-30-2022, 12:27 AM
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#196
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned
Liam's Map's choice to run in the Dirt Mile made sense actually.
You had American Pharoah in the BC Classic in which only 8 tried to beat him. In the Sprint you had Runhappy. As it turns out, the 3 older male dirt races turned into free squares with those 3 completing each leg that weekend.
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So it makes sense to run the Mile because there were world-class horses in the Classic and Sprint? Gee.. what an anomaly that year was!
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06-30-2022, 12:38 AM
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#197
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
We already debated this. You are not going to change my mind.
What people want is for connections to be forced to run in a race they don't believe is ideal even if it means some of them get buried instead of getting a nice payday. These days, that means most would sit out, freshen up, and wait for the Cigar instead.
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What people want is for the best horses in a division to race each other, especially in the championship event. That's literally what every sport strives for.
These trainers have all the rest of the year to pick spots and avoid each other's horses. They can't even man up one time a year? An example like Liam's Map or City of Light running in the Dirt Mile is an indicator that the sport is messed up.
I'm reminded of boxing, a once incredibly popular sport which is now on life support. The best fighters almost never fought each other, they just pumped up their records against easy spots. The viewing public moved on.
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06-30-2022, 01:06 AM
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#198
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter
What people want is for the best horses in a division to race each other, especially in the championship event. That's literally what every sport strives for.
These trainers have all the rest of the year to pick spots and avoid each other's horses. They can't even man up one time a year? An example like Liam's Map or City of Light running in the Dirt Mile is an indicator that the sport is messed up.
I'm reminded of boxing, a once incredibly popular sport which is now on life support. The best fighters almost never fought each other, they just pumped up their records against easy spots. The viewing public moved on.
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This. Baseball is hurting because star pitchers only go 6 or 7 innings now as well. Athletes (or those who manage them) refusing to periodically compete is deadly for any sport.
Last edited by dilanesp; 06-30-2022 at 01:11 AM.
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06-30-2022, 02:24 AM
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#199
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 2,079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Arbiter
So it makes sense to run the Mile because there were world-class horses in the Classic and Sprint? Gee.. what an anomaly that year was!
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It actually was an anomaly.
Track records were set in both the Classic and the Sprint.
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06-30-2022, 07:53 AM
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#200
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
Not trying to change your mind.
I only responded to your comment that the winners of the Dirt Mile would have "gotten nothing" in the Sprint or Classic, which is a ridiculous assertion.
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If you read the entire thread you'd know what I actually said and that wasn't it.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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06-30-2022, 08:21 AM
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#201
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the little guy
I highly doubt the people misunderstanding your first paragraph would have thought Precisionist or Gulch would win the Sprint.
Furthest Land was related to Dynever, or whatever they changed his name to....so there's that.
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The sharpest owners/trainers tend to do what they think is in their best "long term" interests. They don't look at a handful of more surprising successes or failures.
I appreciate that Repole is a sport and took a shot in the Classic with Uncle Mo. But he was the first horse I threw out. However, just because he failed doesn't mean he had no chance or that Liam's Map shouldn't have tried.
In the same way, just because Gulch and Precisionist won, that doesn't mean it would have been economically and developmentally correct for others. In fact, if there was a Mile back then, maybe those trainers would have tried the Sprint anyway because it was for much more money and they felt their horses were versatile enough to pull it off. Or maybe you could argue one of them should have tried the Classic.
I get what everyone wants. People want the best possible races. I want the same thing.
But most of the horses that run in the Mile are not perfectly suited to the other races and others would simply pass the day altogether rather than turn back or stretch out.
I think you run the race and call out those that clearly would be major contenders in the Classic when they seem to be ducking the competition because they are afraid to lose. You call out the connections of St Liam. and the occasional other horse like him.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-30-2022 at 08:36 AM.
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06-30-2022, 08:51 AM
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#202
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
If you read the entire thread you'd know what I actually said and that wasn't it.
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But I quoted your exact words? Here's what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
Everyone hates the Dirt Mile except me and the winner who probably would have gotten nothing in the Sprint or Classic.
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Did the emoji at the end mean the whole post was a joke?
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06-30-2022, 09:35 AM
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#203
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1,216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
The problem with the Dirt Mile is that outside a few tracks where it is run around one turn, it really isn't a true test and not worthy of any kind of championship status. It is more of a consolation prize. The "miler" isn't even really a division on dirt in this country.
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One turn mile - the new "classic"
Two turn mile - the TEST OF A CHAMPION!
(It's so interesting to see how things are viewed here vs. overseas. Trueshan just won the Northumberland Plate on the all-weather at Newcastle under 148 pounds, but there's some scoffing at calling him a "stayer" since the two-mile distance of the race is considered a "middle distance"!!!)
__________________
Tom in NW Arkansas
Past performances are no guarantee of future results. - Why isn't this disclaimer printed in the Daily Racing Form?
Last edited by BarchCapper; 06-30-2022 at 09:43 AM.
Reason: Stayer comment
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06-30-2022, 09:43 AM
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#204
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spalding No!
But I quoted your exact words? Here's what you said:
Did the emoji at the end mean the whole post was a joke?
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Sometimes I think you are being a pain just to be a pain.
I talked about Liam's Map (ducked) in that post and addressed Life Is Good later (long term plans). It's also clear why City of Light went in the Mile.
This is how most smart connections think intuitively if not by using math.
If I'm 40% to win the Mile, and between 5%-10% to win the Sprint, I know I will occasionally win or get a major piece of the Sprint. But the right long term move is still the Mile despite the lower purse.
What you and others want to do is to force him into the 5%-10% or less strategic spot so we get a better race and then point to the occasional success as justification. I disagree partly because I think these days a lot of them will go home and wait instead.
I'm totally with you guys in calling out anyone I think is ducking and hurting the sport.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
Last edited by classhandicapper; 06-30-2022 at 09:45 AM.
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06-30-2022, 09:57 AM
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#205
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 2,079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
Sometimes I think you are being a pain just to be a pain.
I talked about Liam's Map (ducked) in that post and addressed Life Is Good later (long term plans). It's also clear why City of Light went in the Mile.
This is how most smart connections think intuitively if not by using math.
If I'm 40% to win the Mile, and between 5%-10% to win the Sprint, I know I will occasionally win or get a major piece of the Sprint. But the right long term move is still the Mile despite the lower purse.
What you and others want to do is to force him into the 5%-10% or less strategic spot so we get a better race and then point to the occasional success as justification. I disagree partly because I think these days a lot of them will go home and wait instead.
I'm totally with you guys in calling out anyone I think is ducking and hurting the sport.
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And this is where I sit with Liam's Map in 2015 Breeder's Cup.
Where does he fit? Sprint is a no go as he wouldn't be near the fastest and Runhappy was a monster. May not even get paid finishing outside the top 5 if you are honest. Had to be either the Classic/Dirt Mile.
Classic? He and AP were front-runners. He'd have to contend with that beast, and go an extra furlong more than the one he was chased down by in Honor Code who was also in the race. He contends with AP for 6F to a Mile, he may not hit the board, much less return any $ for his efforts.
Kinda stinks, but the Dirt Mile was perfect for him, and he would be a massive favorite and likely winner (which he was).
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06-30-2022, 10:18 AM
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#206
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 20,604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned
And this is where I sit with Liam's Map in 2015 Breeder's Cup.
Where does he fit? Sprint is a no go as he wouldn't be near the fastest and Runhappy was a monster. May not even get paid finishing outside the top 5 if you are honest. Had to be either the Classic/Dirt Mile.
Classic? He and AP were front-runners. He'd have to contend with that beast, and go an extra furlong more than the one he was chased down by in Honor Code who was also in the race. He contends with AP for 6F to a Mile, he may not hit the board, much less return any $ for his efforts.
Kinda stinks, but the Dirt Mile was perfect for him, and he would be a massive favorite and likely winner (which he was).
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Personally, I think not running Liam's Map in the Classic was a mistake.
Potentially hooking up with AP and the possibility he didn't like 10F based on the race he almost got nailed at 9F were reasons to think about it.
But prior to the race, some people thought he might be better than AP. If not, it was close. He might have put AP away and even if he lost still got a major check. I think that race is a major reason we are even having this discussion.
I would have tried to beat both of them.
__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"
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06-30-2022, 11:30 AM
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#207
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 2,079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper
Personally, I think not running Liam's Map in the Classic was a mistake.
Potentially hooking up with AP and the possibility he didn't like 10F based on the race he almost got nailed at 9F were reasons to think about it.
But prior to the race, some people thought he might be better than AP. If not, it was close. He might have put AP away and even if he lost still got a major check. I think that race is a major reason we are even having this discussion.
I would have tried to beat both of them.
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Well, I bet Honor Code. He was only 15.5 lengths back after 4 furlongs, so he would have superbly enjoyed some help on the front end from Liam's Map.
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09-03-2022, 08:25 AM
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#208
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 2,079
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The final question to be answered today. Can he 'get' 10F?
Country Grammer can run 10F, so we'll get an answer.
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09-03-2022, 09:05 AM
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#209
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PalaceOfFortLarned
The final question to be answered today. Can he 'get' 10F?
Country Grammer can run 10F, so we'll get an answer.
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He's by Tapit out of an Indian Charlie mare. Do you ever recall asking yourself... if a Tapit could run longer? I don't.
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09-03-2022, 11:23 AM
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#210
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 2,079
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael
He's by Tapit out of an Indian Charlie mare. Do you ever recall asking yourself... if a Tapit could run longer? I don't.
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Trust me, I want it to be special.
I want Flightline to be special. I want to see it today.
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