Congratulations to 2021 Kentucky Derby Winner Mandaloun!

[dilanesp]

He deserves his own thread, I think.

[Brisk Urging]

Question

do the 2nd,3rd,4th place finishers move up and get the purse?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Brisk Urging

Question

do the 2nd,3rd,4th place finishers move up and get the purse?

yes

[Tom]

But not the bettors.

[classhandicapper]

Not that it matters because he had to get DQ'd, but imo it's very likely the horse would have won if he was clean Derby day. He ran just fine clean after that, moved forward, and proved his quality. If you want to argue Baffert was using something else, you still have to catch him.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Tom

But not the bettors.

I got it!! !

Stoopin' Sam saved over $10,000 in Mandaloun tickets

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[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Not that it matters because he had to get DQ'd, but imo it's very likely the horse would have won if he was clean Derby day. He ran just fine clean after that, moved forward, and proved his quality. If you want to argue Baffert was using something else, you still have to catch him.

Well he also dropped dead, which could mean... he still wasn't clean.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Well he also dropped dead, which could mean... he still wasn't clean.

I know your view and the view of many horseplayers. That's speculation. You still have to catch him. If anything, the evidence from LIG and Maximum Security suggests he's using therapeutics irresponsibly and not using clear cut illegal PEDs. But a few more high profile horses are likely to change hands soon and we'll see more. I took a good look at some of the high profile horses switched to him in recent years. I didn't see any consistent pattern of huge move ups. Country Grammar jumped up a lot off a move from Chad Brown, but he was an improving 3yo coming off a long layoff at 4.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I know your view and the view of many horseplayers. That's speculation. You still have to catch him. If anything, the evidence from LIG and Maximum Security suggests he's using therapeutics irresponsibly and not using clear cut illegal PEDs. But a few more high profile horses are likely to change hands soon and we'll see more. I took a good look at some of the high profile horses switched to him in recent years. I didn't see any consistent pattern of huge move ups. Country Grammar jumped up a lot off a move from Chad Brown, but he was an improving 3yo coming off a long layoff at 4.

i agree that it's all speculation.

I don't understand your change-of-hand evidence whatsoever, unless your questioning is limited to Baffert being a lone wolf who is the only trainer that administers undetectable PEDs and who does so secretly without the knowledge of the owners.

[AskinHaskin]

Of course, by racing tradition, Medina Spirit had to be DQ'ed.


But consider, now, that the 2 most recent non-Baffert Derby winners have never so much as finished in front in a Grade I race in their combined careers.

That while of the last 3 Baffert Derby winners, two were Triple Crown champions.


Somehow people believe this is an improvement to horse racing.



Not to mention that the villian in this case continues to clean the clocks of the, uh, neigh-sayers at or above his traditional clip even though he is said to be employing the finest arsenal of illegal equine enhancements in modern (or non-modern) history. Like so many others who have posed for a time as "the juice man", upon getting caught, this villian's level of performance should have plunged soon after he was caught.

Instead, he has won at a shade under 34% since the Derby overage was announced and that despite so often having to face his own steeds in the same race (which limits his best possible success percentage).


It remains clear to see who is having the last laugh (entirely at the expense of only the aforementioned neigh-sayers ).

[rgustafson]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

He deserves his own thread, I think.

Why? Because both his Grade I wins are by DQ. Might want to wait until he finishes first.

[Brisk Urging]

Cox maybe just as bad.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

Of course, by racing tradition, Medina Spirit had to be DQ'ed.


But consider, now, that the 2 most recent non-Baffert Derby winners have never so much as finished in front in a Grade I race in their combined careers.

That while of the last 3 Baffert Derby winners, two were Triple Crown champions.


Somehow people believe this is an improvement to horse racing.

Should it surprise you that PED users are more consistent than non-PED users? I mean, steroids users more consistently hit homers.

A drug free sport may be one with less excellence, just like drug free baseball may have fewer tape measure home runs and drug free figure skaters may land fewer quads and triple axels. So what?

[CheckMark]

Originally Posted by Brisk Urging

Cox maybe just as bad.

Explain?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

i agree that it's all speculation.

I don't understand your change-of-hand evidence whatsoever, unless your questioning is limited to Baffert being a lone wolf who is the only trainer that administers undetectable PEDs and who does so secretly without the knowledge of the owners.

It’s never all or nothing, but if you are going to speculate that Baffert is using something illegal then we should see a similar general pattern with his trainer changes to/from that we see with other trainers that have been caught or that we all kind of suspect are juicing based on move ups.