GAPFIRE.COM RIDERS UP TRACK CHATTER

[Ted Craven]

www.SartinMethodology.com



presents


GAPFIRE.COM
Gapfire.com Free Play

12th ANNUAL
RIDERSUP MEMORIAL

INNER TRACK CHALLENGE

***

THIS THREAD IS FOR DISCUSSION ON ALL ISSUES
RELATED TO THE RIDERSUP CONTEST

Please post all questions or contest discussion in this thread

The moderators will address your questions here as well

***

Please go HERE to read the Rules and to Sign-up for the Contest.

.

[LAP_520]

Question on GAPFIRE Ridersup Memorial rule..

9. New for 2014: In an effort to encourage and reward good skill, a player's total winnings for any given contest day will be capped at $5,000.


The way I read this rule is the maximum $ amount that can be won for any given contest day is $5,000.

IE::::

Aqueduct Late Pick-4 for a $2.00 wager returns $2,112.40. Your are given full credit because your base wager on your winning ticket was for $1.00 and would receive 1/2 of the $2.00 payout.

BUT.... if your base wager was for (lets say $5.00 ) the track payoff in the above example would be $ $2,112.40 x 2 1/2 = $5,281.00. Your winning ticket would be capped at $5,000. ( losing the $281.)

Am I correct in this thinking. ?

Thanks

[LAP_520]

Another example:

Early Pick 4
$1 --> 1,2,8,9,10 // 5,8 // 10,13,14,16 // 3,4,7,8 ($160)
$1 --> 1,2 // 4,8 // 10,13,14,16 // 3,7 ($32)
$2 --> 2,9 // 4,5 // 10,13 // 3 ($8)
Total = $200

(You like the #3 horse in race 5 because of "whatever reason" and rewards you with an $82.50 Win payoff !!!!!)


RESULTS (from Aqueduct December 8, 2013 Races 2 thru 5)

$2 Pick 4 .. 9 - 5 - 13 - 3 (4 correct) = $8,451.00


At the track~
The first ticket would be worth ..........$4,225.50
The third ticket would be worth.......... $8,451.00
Total payoff................................. $12,676.50

Contest Payoff $5,000.00 CAPPED


I am thinking that this is correct.


Thanks

[tiger rose]

CAPS on wagers totally unfair don't like that at all.
don't need that with the must play 10 days rule to be qualified
I vote we get to keep all EARNINGS

[Immanuel Kant]

I'm not sure how the $5000 cap "encourages and rewards good skill"

The above examples illustrate the point......

I often have an extra few dollars left over in my attempt to cover the $200 bank for the day.....with a cap in place those tickets will now become pure chalk stabs....

[Ted Craven]

The aim in ALL these Contests is to emphasize skill and persistence over luck. Within in the past 2 years, at least one person won a Top 3 prize in this Contest having played a handful of days and hit a ~$12,000 payout. Other ultimate winners hit big a few times having played many days, but made their totals based solely on those few big scores. (Chris can produce more specific stats).

Without a cap, it is entirely possible the winner could be someone whose strategy is to play the strangest, longest shot horses each day because there is no downside to doing so (i.e. you get a free $200 each day - you don't have to nurse that bankroll or risk tapping out) and finally hit 1 Pick 4 and win the whole thing. The PACS points they get for that approach are not equal to the PACS points earned by someone in a grueling contest like the PAIHL Team, or DelToga, etc - IMO.

How to minimize that approach, and inherent difference in skill required? Not to say at all that there is no deep skill in making selections and bet structuring which can result in those kinds of big paydays - of course there is. But even with a cap - everyone is still on the same level playing field - everyone is equally subject to the cap. Is there a circumstance where the $5000 cap gives a particular advantage to any player, over another? Also, many contests have caps on payouts - and for much the same reasons.

Anyway, that was the reasoning. Also the reasoning for the 10 day minimum. It is to avoid the potential for (in the worst case) a player getting lucky once with one big hit and winning the contest solely on that basis (and thus devaluing the PACS / Player of the Year points system).

Ted

[Ted Craven]

Originally Posted by LAP_520

Another example:

Early Pick 4
$1 --> 1,2,8,9,10 // 5,8 // 10,13,14,16 // 3,4,7,8 ($160)
$1 --> 1,2 // 4,8 // 10,13,14,16 // 3,7 ($32)
$2 --> 2,9 // 4,5 // 10,13 // 3 ($8)
Total = $200

(You like the #3 horse in race 5 because of "whatever reason" and rewards you with an $82.50 Win payoff !!!!!)


RESULTS (from Aqueduct December 8, 2013 Races 2 thru 5)

$2 Pick 4 .. 9 - 5 - 13 - 3 (4 correct) = $8,451.00


At the track~
The first ticket would be worth ..........$4,225.50
The third ticket would be worth.......... $8,451.00
Total payoff................................. $12,676.50

Contest Payoff $5,000.00 CAPPED


I am thinking that this is correct.


Thanks

Yes, that is correct.

Ted

[dylbert]

So this ticket from last year's contest would be capped because it was lucky rather than skillful? I handicapped races, stratified selections as ABC, used TicketMaker to construct tickets, and posted my entry. My reward this year is over $3000 less in return if I replicate this effort. Dissent here!


12-16-2012, 10:31 AM #27
dylbert
Turf Economist


Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,153
vCash: 400
Early P4
Early Pick 4
$5 --> 1,3 // 3,5 // 1 // 3,6 (40)
$3 --> 1,3 // 3,5 // 3,7,10 // 3,6 (84)
$3 --> 1,3 // 3,5 // 1 // 8 (12)
$2 --> 1,3 // 3,5 // 3,7,10 // 8 (24)
$2 --> 4,6 // 3,5 // 1 // 3,6 (16)
$2 --> 1,3 // 2,6 // 1 // 3,6 (16)
$2 --> 1,3 // 3,5 // 1 // 4,5 (16)
$4 --> 1 // 5 // 1 // 3 (4)
Total = $200

And away we go!
__________________
This space for rent. Inquire inside.

[Ted Craven]

Dylbert,

Dissent appreciated (provides an opportunity to elaborate). Consider this scenario, in the absence of the $5000 daily cap:

You, Dylbert, play skillfully as you described, in this Contest, with another $8000 day, a few $1 -$2000 days, etc - say 20 days in total, cashing on half your bets.

Another player plays the 10 days minumum, throwing longshots 'against the wall', cashes on 1 bet, and beats you by $500. He wins the Contest and you come second - congratulations! He gets 3000 PACS points and you get 2250.

You continue to play diligently and skillfully in many of the other Contests. At the end of the year - the Player of the Year wins with 6400 points and you have 6300 points. You lose the trip to Vegas and the accolades because a guy in the RidersUp Contest made 1 big (perhaps lucky) hit.

Perhaps 'that's racing' and you will be a good sport. But at the end I can hear someone saying that perhaps that RidersUp Contest did not sufficiently reward the skillful and persistent player.

Anyway - that scenario and variations was something begging to be addressed. To 'work around' the cap this year - we all must apply our skill and persistence, and try to hit a few more $5000+ days.

Respectfully submitted.

Ted

[iwearpurple]

I agree with the cap.

Each year in the past, I have been hopelessly out of the contest on the last weekend.

I played all kinds of longshots on the last weekend hoping to hit a major score. I believe others did the same. Why not if the rules permit it. Would I really deserve to win the contest because I hit some big bombs purely by luck and a pick 4 pays $15,000.00. I don't think so. If it was a real money contest, there would be no way, I would play a longshot ticket, why should I be permitted to here.

I do understand hitting a big pick 4 with handicapping skills, as was previously posted, but I believe the cap makes sense in the long run.

[LAP_520]

Okay players, handicappers, and horse thrill seekers, the 2014 Ridersup Memorial Aqueduct Inner Track Challenge starts Saturday, December 14th.

Opening weekend it looks like Mother Nature is going to be involved in a big way.. with rain, rain/snow mix and very cold temps.

So,,, unless it is a cancellation due to weather, Aqueduct will be racing EVERY weekend in December 2013 and on New Year's Day.


Just a reminder to help Track Collector in scoring.

---> there is no such thing as 50 cents in the wager amount.... Full dollar bills only/ $1.00, $2.00, $3.00 or $5.00 0r $10.00, etc. you get the idea.


---> Please do not use the word "ALL" in any part of the race ticket. list your horse numbers that you are using in the ticket structure.

---> On that same ticket structure, do not use the dash (-) to mean the word "thru" or to include the horses between the horse spread you type...

$1 Pick 4 . 4,5,6 // 1 - 6 // 7,8,9 // 4 - 6 ($162) ---WRONG WAY
Please type in all horse numbers
$1 Pick 4 . 4,5,6 // 1,2,3,4,5,6 // 7,8,9 // 4,5.6 ($162) --- CORRECT

And remember to use $200. !!!!

Thank You for your cooperation and understanding.
Good Luck and Good 'capping everybody.


LAP_520
(Gapfire.com Ridersup Memorial Aqueduct Inner Track Challenge Champion~ 2013)

[coachv30]

Congrats on last year's win Lap...wasn't aware

[Ted Craven]

The Gapfire RiderUp Memorial Contest welcomes the returning previous winners of this contest (that I know of - please speak up if I left you off the list!)

2012 - 2013 -- LAP_50
2011 - 2012 -- cdax
2010 - 2011 -- horses4courses
2009 - 2010 -- Bobzilla
2008 - 2009 -- carlb
2006 - 2007 -- ranchwest
2004 - 2005 -- Light

Congratulations gentlemen on your past achievements - and very best of luck, and skill again this year!

Ted

[Carlb]

Ranchwest and horses4courses are past winners.

[cdax]

I'm not a fan of it but if we must cap I was wondering if this suggestion would be more acceptable to other contestants.

Instead of capping the day at $5000, just cap the $2 payoff at $5000. This way someone playing a $1 caveman pick 4 with 200 combinations receives $2500 for his win. While a more skillful handicapper may come up with a $4 pick 4 with only 50 combinations thus receiving $10,000.

Just a thought, I will be playing no matter what.

Thanks
Chris