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Old 12-20-2016, 09:19 AM   #46
upthecreek
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TVG Policy

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Originally Posted by stringmail
Can we count on the journalistic integrity at TVG to ask Ellis why he didn't scratch?

If they are concerned about not losing wagering dollars, shouldn't this be addressed so they can build trust with their "employer", the wagering public?

Maybe we can get Talamo's wife to ask her dad on camera?
Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Report No Evil

I bet if someone asks Rich Perloff today about it, he wont discuss it.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:21 AM   #47
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Interesting comment to the article in the Paulick Report:

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Ellis is probably the victim of bad luck but an important question that needs to be asked of the Breeders' Cup board is "does the Breeders Cup condone the use of anabolic steriods in preparing horses to race in Breeders' Cup races?" When U.S. racing put its anabolic steroid policy in place, it opted not to go with a complete ban as trainers and veterinarians made their case at the time that anabolic steroids are useful in energizing horses and restoring their appetite when they return from illness or injury. Most trainers now do what Ellis has done, give them a shot two days after a run and space the races out so that they don't get a positive. But think about this if you are a European trainer coming over to race in the Breeders' Cup. From the 2 March 2015, a racehorse in England (and by proxy Europe as all top horses race in England at some stage) must not be administered an anabolic steroid at any point in its life. Any horse administered an anabolic steroid will face a mandatory stand down period from training for 12 months and ineligible to start in any race in Britain for 14 months. So for the last two years at the Breeders' Cup, the European trainers and owners haven't been able to use steroids if they were required as a 'pick me up'. This in not like Lasix where the Euro's can decide if they want to use raceday Lasix or not. They have no ability to use steroids and the performance benefits it gives. By reading what Ellis and others have said, if he wasn't given a steroid he would probably not have been able to recover to compete at the level he did. Over the past two Breeders' Cup, how many European horses have been beaten by US horses who are being afforded a steroid advantage? Does the Breeders' Cup board condone this unlevel playing field?
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/th...mount-steroid/
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:26 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by cj
The more I read up on this the more it seems this program used by Ellis is just a way to circumvent the steroid rules. Race, juice, wait, race, juice, wait, race, juice, etc.
Isnt he playing by the rules that are in place? I dont blame him for figuring away around it, I blame the powers to be
CHANGE THE RULES
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by upthecreek
Isnt he playing by the rules that are in place? I dont blame him for figuring away around it, I blame the powers to be
CHANGE THE RULES
Sure, I'm all for that. That said, we don't know he plays by the rules. Could very well be he was injected inside the 60 days. He did, after all, fail the drug test.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:50 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by cj
Interesting comment to the article in the Paulick Report:



http://www.paulickreport.com/news/th...mount-steroid/
Im sure the people that represent the BC will comment after they are done self promoting and taking selfies.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:53 AM   #51
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Ellis played by the rules. Don't think he is the issue.

You know, the biggest problem is the guys that are destroying the game by improving maiden claimers into graded stakes horses. We all know who they are. These guys are flat out cheating. Others like Ellis, get dirtied up by affiliation.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:55 AM   #52
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Im sure the people that represent the BC will comment after they are done self promoting and taking selfies.
This is never ending.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Track Phantom
Ellis played by the rules. Don't think he is the issue.

You know, the biggest problem is the guys that are destroying the game by improving maiden claimers into graded stakes horses. We all know who they are. These guys are flat out cheating. Others like Ellis, get dirtied up by affiliation.
I'm not a fan of blindly accepting his explanation. How do we know he didn't inject 45 days out, or 30? The horse, after all, did FAIL a drug test. We don't know Ron Ellis. Could very well be he tried to take advantage of a good reputation.

Personally I doubt he did anything wrong other than not scratching the horse. But I'm not willing to give him a pass on reputation. He screwed up and he should pay a heavy price.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:08 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by cj
I'm not a fan of blindly accepting his explanation. How do we know he didn't inject 45 days out, or 30? The horse, after all, did FAIL a drug test. We don't know Ron Ellis. Could very well be he tried to take advantage of a good reputation.

Personally I doubt he did anything wrong other than not scratching the horse. But I'm not willing to give him a pass on reputation. He screwed up and he should pay a heavy price.
You're entitled to that opinion. In listening to him, I tend to believe what he is saying and that his explanation is exactly as it occurred.

This is all a bit over my head, to be honest. Like I mentioned above, the guys that have destroyed the game by improving maiden claimers into graded stakes and jump them up 40 points first off a claim 10 days after the claim, these guys have caused everyone to distrust everything as it relates to the word "drug" and horses. This pessimism hurts guys like Ellis who get caught up in something different. To a lot of people, it's the same thing.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:14 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Track Phantom
This pessimism hurts guys like Ellis who get caught up in something different. To a lot of people, it's the same thing.
This isn't far from being as bad for the game. Using anabolic steroids on your horses between races so they can't race very often stinks too. Seems to be his MO, not just with this horse.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Track Phantom
You're entitled to that opinion. In listening to him, I tend to believe what he is saying and that his explanation is exactly as it occurred.

This is all a bit over my head, to be honest. Like I mentioned above, the guys that have destroyed the game by improving maiden claimers into graded stakes and jump them up 40 points first off a claim 10 days after the claim, these guys have caused everyone to distrust everything as it relates to the word "drug" and horses. This pessimism hurts guys like Ellis who get caught up in something different. To a lot of people, it's the same thing.
Perception is reality though for a lot of people. Look at some of the asinine threads on here.

The good news is the slap on the wrist Ellis might get should deter this from happening again

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Old 12-20-2016, 10:22 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by cj
This isn't far from being as bad for the game. Using anabolic steroids on your horses between races so they can't race very often stinks too. Seems to be his MO, not just with this horse.
Neither good but hardly the same thing. On one hand, you have a trainer trying to keep a runner in training at a level they have been at. On another hand, you have trainers moving horses up dramatically for the sole purpose of stealing purses (and usually betting money) from others. I don't put them in the same league.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:26 AM   #58
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I'll add five things.

1. Stanozolol was once marketed as Winstrol, but production was discontinued a few years ago. In order to obtain stanozolol today vets would have to go to a compounding pharmacy and have some made up. This means it is more possible than it was previously for the dosing to vary.

2. Stanozolol has long been the treatment of choice in cases of failure to thrive, or post-surgically (primarily gelding). It works very well as an appetite stimulant and as hormone replacement therapy after gelding. Stanozolol does have anabolic effects.

3. Horses metabolyze the drug at varying rates and in some cases it may take 90 days to clear a horse's system. However, it is uncommon that the drug wouldn't clear a horse's system in 45 days.

4. The amount of the drug in Masochistic's system had no performance enhancing effect on raceday

5. The recommended withdrawal times are just that. They are not part of the standard. This is currently an issue with horsemen, especially considering that some of the withdrawal times are not correlated with the ability of current testing technology to find extremely low concentrations of substances. In other words, why provide a recommended withdrawal time when they are not protective?
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:29 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
I'll add five things.

1. Stanozolol was once marketed as Winstrol, but production was discontinued a few years ago. In order to obtain stanozolol today vets would have to go to a compounding pharmacy and have some made up. This means it is more possible than it was previously for the dosing to vary.

2. Stanozolol has long been the treatment of choice in cases of failure to thrive, or post-surgically (primarily gelding). It works very well as an appetite stimulant and as hormone replacement therapy after gelding. Stanozolol does have anabolic effects.

3. Horses metabolyze the drug at varying rates and in some cases it may take 90 days to clear a horse's system. However, it is uncommon that the drug wouldn't clear a horse's system in 45 days.

4. The amount of the drug in Masochistic's system had no performance enhancing effect on raceday

5. The recommended withdrawal times are just that. They are not part of the standard. This is currently an issue with horsemen, especially considering that some of the withdrawal times are not correlated with the ability of current testing technology to find extremely low concentrations of substances. In other words, why provide a recommended withdrawal time when they are not protective?
Regarding #4, did you read the article I cited? People truly believed the earth was flat too, didn't mean you could sail off the edge. Very good chance it absolutely enhances performance long term.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:30 AM   #60
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The duct-tape answer here seems reasonably obvious. If the testing outlined in this case is more or less protocol, then just establish thresholds that disqualify a horse on the final round of out of competition tests from competing. Don't punish the trainer, he/she hasn't failed a test. But the horse is ineligible. Announce the positive. If connections really decide that they want to stay the disqualification by sending the split out and get destroyed in venues like this for the decision to press on and compete, obviously the post-race testing penalties apply, including in my perfect world a much lengthier ban from the event in the future for the connections in general. Horse protected, bettors protected, trainer protected, various acronyms protected. At least a little better than this predictable nonsense when you have out of competition testing being employed as some kind of lame stalking horse.
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