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Old 06-08-2019, 09:23 AM   #1
NY BRED
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GARY AND MARY WEST VS THE KY RACING COMMISSION

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...qualification/

The above link is contained on The Paulick Report Website;

regardless of the chatter to date, both in the press and ,to some degree on this forum, there are many points contained in this litigation that many us missed.

While we all observed the reasons for the DQ many of us were unaware that owners and trainers relinquish their rights to appeal the decision of the stewards which, to my knowledge only exists at Churchill Downs.

The "win" for the"house" represents a "mother load" of profit via the DQ; based upon the allegations regarding the rules of racing , zero Dq's in 145 years etc might just favor the plaintiff.

Even if there is no reversal changes to these"unique" powers of the Stewards must be altered to protect the owners and fans who wager on this race.

Last edited by NY BRED; 06-08-2019 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:48 AM   #2
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I’m aware of it and stated they will probably lose because the judge is going to read that and recite it. Money is no object with these people, this is a jab at the Kentucky Racing Commission and an attempt to dirty up the Stewards which will not be hard to do if they are forced to talk. I said last month “winning” is not what they are looking for. I do agree though that the racing commission should not be “God” or the Wizard of Oz like they are.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:06 AM   #3
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HA!


When War of Will wins today we'll all know who stole the Triple Crown from whom.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY BRED View Post
https://www.paulickreport.com/news/t...qualification/

The above link is contained on The Paulick Report Website;

regardless of the chatter to date, both in the press and ,to some degree on this forum, there are many points contained in this litigation that many us missed.

While we all observed the reasons for the DQ many of us were unaware that owners and trainers relinquish their rights to appeal the decision of the stewards which, to my knowledge only exists at Churchill Downs.

The "win" for the"house" represents a "mother load" of profit via the DQ; based upon the allegations regarding the rules of racing , zero Dq's in 145 years etc might just favor the plaintiff.

Even if there is no reversal changes to these"unique" powers of the Stewards must be altered to protect the owners and fans who wager on this race.
First of all, it's Mary West, not Marsha.

Second, not being able to appeal Steward's in-race decisions is the norm, not the exception. It's not a Kentucky thing (and Churchill doesn't even get to make that call regardless, the Commonwealth does).

For example, Indiana has the following .... 71 IAC 10-2-9 (f)A decision by the judges regarding a disqualification involving the running of the race that does not result in a ruling is final and may not be appealed.

You can argue that it should be changed, but it being "unique to Churchill" is not the argument, and precedent will likely kill this case. The Kentucky Court of Appeals has already decided on this issue in the case March v KHRC (2015). My guess is the Federal Judge will remand it back to Kentucky, as they normally do with gambling related cases.

Third, the house did not "win" anything as a result of the DQ. The exact same amount of money still got paid out, just to different people.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:36 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by toddbowker View Post
Third, the house did not "win" anything as a result of the DQ. The exact same amount of money still got paid out, just to different people.
Basically correct with the small exception that the track probably paid out a little more based on keeping less breakage with the longshot on top.
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:19 PM   #6
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Basically correct with the small exception that the track probably paid out a little more based on keeping less breakage with the longshot on top.
but I bet they made it up plus some on uncashed tickets with the dq
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Old 06-09-2019, 12:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by toddbowker View Post
First of all, it's Mary West, not Marsha.

Second, not being able to appeal Steward's in-race decisions is the norm, not the exception. It's not a Kentucky thing (and Churchill doesn't even get to make that call regardless, the Commonwealth does).

For example, Indiana has the following .... 71 IAC 10-2-9 (f)A decision by the judges regarding a disqualification involving the running of the race that does not result in a ruling is final and may not be appealed.

You can argue that it should be changed, but it being "unique to Churchill" is not the argument, and precedent will likely kill this case. The Kentucky Court of Appeals has already decided on this issue in the case March v KHRC (2015). My guess is the Federal Judge will remand it back to Kentucky, as they normally do with gambling related cases.

Third, the house did not "win" anything as a result of the DQ. The exact same amount of money still got paid out, just to different people.
Thanks for this. The initial post was a real head-scratcher.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:33 PM   #8
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What Todd said for the most part (although it would be a dismissal, not a remand to state court).

More broadly, a lot of people who support the Wests in this litigation seem to have this fantasy where the Wests get to take far ranging discovery, deposing Tyler G and getting him to "concede" that War of Will ran up on MS's heels, deposing the stewards and getting them to "admit" that they didn't post the inquiry sign, making semi-clever arguments about how they didn't DQ in other roughly run Derbies, etc.

That's not how this works. Under Rule 12(b)(6), you have to state a claim for relief BEFORE you can get discovery in federal court, if the defendant can show a plausible ground for dismissal. You have to show that if the facts are as you say they are, you can win your suit.

There's precious little chance that this case gets anywhere near discovery. What's very likely to happen is that the Defendants will move to dismiss, arguing that stewards' decisions are final and that there is no due process right to anything more than a stewards' deliberation in a horse race, and that's it, the Plaintiffs lose. And it is very likely that this argument will win, the case will be dismissed, and the dismissal will be affirmed on appeal.
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Old 06-09-2019, 03:00 PM   #9
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Even though I really didn't want to, given the OPs history of messing up facts (lulz), I gave in to my proper instincts and corrected Marsha to Mary.

Still a hilarious fail if you ask me.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:32 PM   #10
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Even if there is no reversal changes to these"unique" powers of the Stewards must be altered to protect the owners and fans who wager on this race.
I'd settle for having transparency of information on the horses, like they do in Hong Kong, so I can have a veterinary history of the horses I am spending my hard earned $$ on. I can't count the number of times I've been "hood-winked" in this manner, finding out stuff about horses way way after the fact.
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Old 06-09-2019, 08:25 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by FenceBored View Post
HA!


When War of Will wins today we'll all know who stole the Triple Crown from whom.
um... ya
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:33 AM   #12
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but I bet they made it up plus some on uncashed tickets with the dq
Outs tickets in Kentucky used to revert to the Kentucky Racing Health and Welfare Fund after a period of time. Assuming they still do, Churchill wouldn't have profited itself.

As every jurisdiction is different, it's possible some guest sites may have benefited.
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:53 PM   #13
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HA!


When War of Will wins today we'll all know who stole the Triple Crown from whom.
It was not surprising to see WoW and Tacitus finish behind the winner in the Belmont. WoW did not have the stamina to finish well in the Derby and he was even less likely to win the Belmont after a hard campaign over the past couple of months.

Tacitus is by Tapit out of Pulpit. Neither of those could stay beyond 9 furlongs.

I saw Pulpit race a few times. Definitely a middle distance horse, not a classic distance horse, based on his physique and his record.

There is stamina in Tacitus' pedigree with A.P. Indy, Seattle Slew, Unbridled, and Unbridled's Song, but maybe the sprinter/middle distance genes from the Storm Cat pedigree on the dam's side is a little more dominant? Did Storm Bird ever win a major race beyond 7 furlongs?

Now if Tacitus was to be bred to a dam with stamina in her pedigree, like a My Flag-pedigreed filly, then maybe the offspring could win some classics.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:14 PM   #14
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It was not surprising to see WoW and Tacitus finish behind the winner in the Belmont. WoW did not have the stamina to finish well in the Derby and he was even less likely to win the Belmont after a hard campaign over the past couple of months.

Tacitus is by Tapit out of Pulpit. Neither of those could stay beyond 9 furlongs.

I saw Pulpit race a few times. Definitely a middle distance horse, not a classic distance horse, based on his physique and his record.

There is stamina in Tacitus' pedigree with A.P. Indy, Seattle Slew, Unbridled, and Unbridled's Song, but maybe the sprinter/middle distance genes from the Storm Cat pedigree on the dam's side is a little more dominant? Did Storm Bird ever win a major race beyond 7 furlongs?

Now if Tacitus was to be bred to a dam with stamina in her pedigree, like a My Flag-pedigreed filly, then maybe the offspring could win some classics.
Marconi, a Tapit, won a Grade II at 1 1/2 on the Belmont card.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:21 PM   #15
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Marconi, a Tapit, won a Grade II at 1 1/2 on the Belmont card.
Yes. I see that Tapit has now sire at least 3 Belmont winners. I had stopped following U.S. racing for several years and missed that.

I wonder if the Tapit colts got their stamina from Tapit via the grand sires like A.P. Indy and Seattle Slew, or from the dam side?

I'd like to the speed Belmont speed figures of his colts that won.
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