Minimum wage hike closing Seattle restaurants

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

The increased spending from higher wages does not go back dollar for dollar to the companies that were hit hard. It gets spread around. That is important.

There is no increased real spending from higher wages. The money for the higher wages has to come from somewhere. As he just admitted in the previous post, it comes from higher prices. There are no more burgers being consumed, they just cost more. And they cost more for the people that just got an increase in wages.

In the past, his position was that prices would not increase, the money would come from increased demand or be absorbed by the employer.

[mostpost]

http://www.businessforafairminimumwa..._July_2014.pdf
61% if small business owners favor raising the minimum wage to $10.10/hour over the next three years, then adjusting it annually to keep pace with the cost of living. Why?
1. raising the minimum wage would increase consumer purchasing power in the economy.
2. raising the minimum wage would help the economy.
3. with a higher minimum wage, businesses would benefit from lower employee turnover and increased productivity and customer satisfaction.

Those are not my reasons. Those are reasons given by respondents to the poll-small businessmen.
Someone is sure to respond to this poll by saying, "If those businessmen want to pay their employees more, why don't they just do so? Why do we have to get the government involved?"

This is exactly why these businessmen favor a minimum wage. So that they can pay their employees what they (and the employees) consider to be a fair wage, without worrying about a competitor underselling them because that competitor is paying substandard wages.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Someone is sure to respond to this poll by saying, "If those businessmen want to pay their employees more, why don't they just do so? Why do we have to get the government involved?"

This is exactly why these businessmen favor a minimum wage. So that they can pay their employees what they (and the employees) consider to be a fair wage, without worrying about a competitor underselling them because that competitor is paying substandard wages.

I hope those small business owners realize that big box store companies use global labor. Note the extinction of mom and pops for that very reason.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Clocker

There is no increased real spending from higher wages. The money for the higher wages has to come from somewhere. As he just admitted in the previous post, it comes from higher prices. There are no more burgers being consumed, they just cost more. And they cost more for the people that just got an increase in wages.

In the past, his position was that prices would not increase, the money would come from increased demand or be absorbed by the employer.

You are misinterpreting my position. Any of the three is possible. All of the three are probable. My point in my reply to classhandicapper was that an increase in price would not necessarily cause a drop in sales. In fact, an increase in sales is much more likely.

Here are some annual sales figures for restaurants in the United States
1970---$42.8 Billion
1980---$119.6 billion
1990---$239.4 Billion
2000---$378.0 Billion
2010---$586.7 Billion
2015---$729.2 Billlion
Over that same period we raised the minimum wage at least fifteen times. It does not seem that raising the minimum wage has had a particularly negative effect.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Someone is sure to respond to this poll by saying, "If those businessmen want to pay their employees more, why don't they just do so? Why do we have to get the government involved?"

Because they are already paying more than minimum wage (i.e., union shops) and are in competition with companies that use cheap labor? Because they want to force up the cost of production for the competition? Because they want to keep start-ups with cheap labor from entering their market?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mostpost

an increase in price would not necessarily cause a drop in sales. In fact, an increase in sales is much more likely.

Hundreds of years of universally accepted nonpartisan economic theory refuted in a single post.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Hundreds of years of universally accepted nonpartisan economic theory refuted in a single post.

The stupid, it hurts.

[Clocker]

The poll purporting to show that small businesses support an increase in the minimum wage is suspect because the results are counter-intuitive, the results are contrary to main stream economic theory, the methodology of the poll is not discussed in any detail, and all parties to the poll (the pollster and the sponsors) are clearly and openly biased.

Just for laughs, let's start with the pollster, Lake Research Partners. From their web site:

LRP works with leading voices in the progressive movement. We take pride in providing individual attention and strategy to every candidate we work for. From the U.S. Senate to City Hall and everywhere in between, we work side by side with our clients on developing communications and paid media, targeting supporters, and honing the messages that win persuadable voters. We use a full range of research tools, from surveys and focus groups to online town halls and ad testing to propel our clients to victory on Election Day.

Their aim is not to discover information, it is to discover how to sway opinion. More:

We are national experts on unions and labor issues. LRP shares the goals of the labor movement and is committed to improving the lives of working people. Our in-depth message research has helped unions successfully advocate on issues including the minimum wage, the right to organize, retirement security and health care. Our research experience includes working with the AFL-CIO, UFCW, SEIU, NEA, AFSCME, CWA, UAW, and AFT.

Again, they are not looking for opinions, they are looking for ways to influence opinions. More:

LRP is a leading public opinion and political strategy research firm providing expert research-based strategy for campaigns, issue advocacy groups, foundations, unions, and non-profit organizations.

In their own words, they are not pollsters, they are political strategy consultants.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Hundreds of years of universally accepted nonpartisan economic theory refuted in a single post.

Yes, I confused increase in wages with increase in price. What I do not think is that an increase in the minimum wage has to accompanied by an increase in prices. There are other ways to offset that increase, such as an increase in sales and other economies like lower turnover and training costs.

Anyway, there is no such thing as a universally accepted nonpartisan economic theory. There are conflicting schools of thought on almost every economic issue. When you say universally accepted you mean the theories you agree with.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Anyway, there is no such thing as a universally accepted nonpartisan economic theory. There are conflicting schools of thought on almost every economic issue. When you say universally accepted you mean the theories you agree with.

It is a nearly universally accepted economic principle that there is an inverse relation between price and quantity demanded. The exception being you.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by clocker

The poll purporting to show that small businesses support an increase in the minimum wage is suspect because the results are counter-intuitive, the results are contrary to main stream economic theory, the methodology of the poll is not discussed in any detail, and all parties to the poll (the pollster and the sponsors) are clearly and openly biased.

Just for laughs, let's start with the pollster, Lake Research Partners. From their web site:

Quote:
LRP works with leading voices in the progressive movement. We take pride in providing individual attention and strategy to every candidate we work for. From the U.S. Senate to City Hall and everywhere in between, we work side by side with our clients on developing communications and paid media, targeting supporters, and honing the messages that win persuadable voters. We use a full range of research tools, from surveys and focus groups to online town halls and ad testing to propel our clients to victory on Election Day.


Their aim is not to discover information, it is to discover how to sway opinion. More:

Quote:
We are national experts on unions and labor issues. LRP shares the goals of the labor movement and is committed to improving the lives of working people. Our in-depth message research has helped unions successfully advocate on issues including the minimum wage, the right to organize, retirement security and health care. Our research experience includes working with the AFL-CIO, UFCW, SEIU, NEA, AFSCME, CWA, UAW, and AFT.


Again, they are not looking for opinions, they are looking for ways to influence opinions. More:

Quote:
LRP is a leading public opinion and political strategy research firm providing expert research-based strategy for campaigns, issue advocacy groups, foundations, unions, and non-profit organizations.


In their own words, they are not pollsters, they are political strategy consultants.

If a pollster were to say that he works exclusively with conservative groups, you would have no problem accepting their results. If such a pollster said he had conducted a survey and found that 98% of small business owners rejected the idea of an increase in the minimum wage, you would never question that survey.

You have no reason, except for your unabashed bias, to claim the survey was falsified.

Methodology
Results for this scientific poll are based on a nationwide live telephone survey of 555 owners of for-profit small
businesses in the U.S. with 2 to 99 employees, conducted by Lake Research Partners, June 4-10, 2014. The data were
weighted slightly by gender, region, party identification, ethnicity and business size to match the sample of small
business owners to the national population of small business owners. The survey’s margin of error is +/-4.2%.

That is the methodology you said does not exist.

Also, 43% of the owners surveyed were Republican, while only 28% were Democrats. Despite this 61% favored an increase.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Clocker

It is a nearly universally accepted economic principle that there is an inverse relation between price and quantity demanded. The exception being you.

Purchasing power has nothing to do with it? If purchasing power i.e. wages increase more than the price of an object then, according to your theory, the demand will increase. Demand increases; sales go up.


This is as good a place as any to mention this. This thread was originally about how raising the minimum wage in Seattle was causing restaurants to shut their doors. Several specific examples were given. It was quickly proven that not one of those restaurants was closing because of the minimum wage. Naturally the cons deflected the issue.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mostpost

Purchasing power has nothing to do with it? If purchasing power i.e. wages increase more than the price of an object then, according to your theory, the demand will increase. Demand increases; sales go up.

There is nothing to indicate that aggregate purchasing power has increased here. The question remains, where does the money come from. Even if there is no general increase in prices, if minimum wage earners have more purchasing power, employers and/or customers have less.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mostpost

If a pollster were to say that he works exclusively with conservative groups, you would have no problem accepting their results.

You are trying to read minds again, an area where you have demonstrated a serious lack of reading comprehension.

I give no credibility to any "pollster" that labels himself as affiliated with a party or view. The notion of talking heads on TV identified as Democratic or Republican pollsters is nuts. Those people are political consultants, not pollsters. As is the group that did this "poll".

That is the methodology you said does not exist.

Nonsense. It says nothing about the population of the sample, how the population was sampled, or other details about how the results were weighted.

Also, 43% of the owners surveyed were Republican, while only 28% were Democrats. Despite this 61% favored an increase.

More nonsense. I can't believe that such a high percentage of business owners were Democrats.

[Clocker]

The poll is meaningless because it does not provide two essential pieces of information. Of the 61% in favor of an increase in the minimum wage, how many would see their own payroll expenses increase, and how many would see their competition but not themselves adversely affected.

It's easy to advocate how others should run their businesses.