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Old 06-01-2020, 11:34 PM   #5101
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Causes is[sic] what we're talking about.
The title of the thread is "Religion."

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If the universe were eternal, it would need no cause because there are only two kinds of existences: Eternal or temporal (finite).
"Temporal" does not mean "finite." Look it up.

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... very many changes are things coming into and going out of existence.
So you've read A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

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Likewise, since God is eternal, he is not a caused entity.
Read Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett.

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And since scripture ...
Proves nothing! We're done.
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:39 PM   #5102
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What caused the particle to come into existence?
Read The God Particle.

https://www.amazon.com/God-Particle-...s%2C157&sr=1-1
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:43 PM   #5103
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Finite entities cannot create themselves.
Why not?

In any case we're talking about an infinite entity, viz., God, and there is no evidence that such an entity exists.
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:50 AM   #5104
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This is a very interesting point. A very sound argument can be made that NOTHING would or could exist, if an "infinite regress" of contingencies or conditions was a possibility. Lets take a cat for example.First, if the cat is dependent upon a finite number of conditions, then that means there is going to be a most fundamental condition (a last or terminating condition) in the series of conditions that the cat depends upon for its existence. For example, the cat is dependent upon the existence of its cells, which in turn are dependent upon amino acids and proteins, the amino acids and proteins depend on the existence of molecules, the molecules depend upon atoms, the atoms depend upon protons, the protons depend upon quarks, and so forth. With such a series, the quark (or something more fundamental) would be the terminating condition that the cat depends upon for its existence. Now, if the series regresses infinitely to more and more fundamental conditions that have the same existential status as the previous conditions, then the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly. But if the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly, then every hypothetical conditioned reality in the series would never have its conditions fulfilled and thus would never come into existence. ??
I believe it is our inability to grasp the concept of infinity that stumps us.

Everything we know and experience is "contingent" and shaped by our interaction with the finite. Both the "bottom up scientific" approach and the "top down religious" one have built in limitations of how we look at things.

It may be as the religious mystics who tried to report from alternate states of consciousness, beyond all words.

The bottom up scientific view, is more objective in not jumping to conclusions. But tends to limit the "holistic". The top down religious approach can draw on more intuitive avenues. But extends intuition into assumptions frequently proven factually wrong.

I prefer Albert Einstein's mix of materialism and spirituality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...noza's_God

Einstein had explored the idea that humans could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:

Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.
------------------------------------------

I agree with most of this, but the Hindu vedantic philosophers also considered non-dualistic philosophy

Advaita Vedanta is a school of Hindu philosophy, is an appropach o spiritual realization in Indian tradition. The term Advaita refers to its idea that the true self, Atman, is the same as the highest "metaphysical" reality of the universe, Brahman. However, not separating Brahman, Atman, and material things into distinct components. Or contingencies.

As a tree contains all it's components. We divide it up into the trunk, branches, and leafs. An adequate analysis but frequently losing the what connects it all up.

We cannot help NOT seeing the parts and the whole simultaneously
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:54 AM   #5105
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In other words, you don't know what caused it? You can't tell us in a few sentences or a paragraph? Or are we back to infinite regress again?
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Old 06-02-2020, 10:57 AM   #5106
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The title of the thread is "Religion."

"Temporal" does not mean "finite." Look it up.

So you've read A Universe From Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

Read Breaking the Spell by Daniel Dennett.

Proves nothing! We're done.
"Temporal" means temporary. Enduring for a time. Sounds pretty finite to me, since finite means subject to limitations.
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Old 06-02-2020, 03:00 PM   #5107
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"Temporal" means temporary. Enduring for a time. Sounds pretty finite to me, since finite means subject to limitations.
Because someone defines something as being something or having a certain property, those definitions by themselves are merely circular.

If you define or describe yourself as able to fly, should anyone believe you because you declare it so? In most cases most rational beings would conclude the only "property" you may have, is at best the ability to exaggerate.

How do we know your "definition of a god" is also at best, no more than just an exaggeration??
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:28 PM   #5108
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Why not?
A finite entity cannot create itself because it would have to have abilities that only the infinite has. For example a universe that has a birth has a death. How can that which is finite which means limited to a world of duality (birth and death) cause its own birth and existence from the dimension of death and non existence? Impossible.



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In any case we're talking about an infinite entity, viz., God, and there is no evidence that such an entity exists.
Because God is infinite it is important to understand the dimensional differences between infinity and the finite in comprehending God.

Because we are finite, our finite oriented brains cannot comprehend the concept of infinity. But if we can go "outside" our minds for a moment through a higher consciousness experience (through various means), we will find you can comprehend infinity because our higher consciousness is linked to the infinite. You cannot comprehend infinity with a finite brain.

Its similar to our dreams that speak a different language than our waking minds. We have no clue what our dreams were really about all night in our heads. If we can't even understand what our dreams are saying, how can we understand infinity? Only the consciousness made for dreams can understand it and that needs to be accessed to do so. Similarly with understanding the infinite or God.

Because of this dilemma of the finite not being able to comprehend the infinite, a lot of religions use "faith" to bypass comprehension of the incomprehensible infinite God. Personally I needed more than that. What happened to me was "proof" sent to me through "phenomena" in my life that transcended my belief that all there is was the finite.

You said you were agnostic. That's fine with me and i have no interest in persuading you to any religion or belief because I have a personal relationship with God and do not need a religion to tell me my place or yours. God shows me my place personally. I only respond because of what you claim that I disagree with, similar to boxcar with his zealous remarks. My experience disproves your claims of no God until proven. It also disproves boxcars claims of an angry God.

I found that the infinite does not play by the same rules as the finite and the misinterpretation of that is the source of different views on God from Atheism to hard core,(you're going to hell) believers.
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Old 06-02-2020, 04:41 PM   #5109
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Because someone defines something as being something or having a certain property, those definitions by themselves are merely circular.

If you define or describe yourself as able to fly, should anyone believe you because you declare it so? In most cases most rational beings would conclude the only "property" you may have, is at best the ability to exaggerate.

How do we know your "definition of a god" is also at best, no more than just an exaggeration??
It's not my definition. It's the bible's.

Bbiblical theology is logical, violating no laws of logic, which is more than be said for athesitic materialism.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:26 PM   #5110
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Is the cat alive or dead?
The uncaused cause is the Higgs Boson, a.k.a., "the God particle."
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Should we worship the Higgs Boson?
Is the cat alive or dead? It does not matter.

Should we worship the Higgs Boson? Worship?
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:31 PM   #5111
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I believe it is our inability to grasp the concept of infinity that stumps us.

Everything we know and experience is "contingent" and shaped by our interaction with the finite. Both the "bottom up scientific" approach and the "top down religious" one have built in limitations of how we look at things.

It may be as the religious mystics who tried to report from alternate states of consciousness, beyond all words.

The bottom up scientific view, is more objective in not jumping to conclusions. But tends to limit the "holistic". The top down religious approach can draw on more intuitive avenues. But extends intuition into assumptions frequently proven factually wrong.

I prefer Albert Einstein's mix of materialism and spirituality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...noza's_God

Einstein had explored the idea that humans could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:

Your question is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.
------------------------------------------

I agree with most of this, but the Hindu vedantic philosophers also considered non-dualistic philosophy

Advaita Vedanta is a school of Hindu philosophy, is an appropach o spiritual realization in Indian tradition. The term Advaita refers to its idea that the true self, Atman, is the same as the highest "metaphysical" reality of the universe, Brahman. However, not separating Brahman, Atman, and material things into distinct components. Or contingencies.

As a tree contains all it's components. We divide it up into the trunk, branches, and leafs. An adequate analysis but frequently losing the what connects it all up.

We cannot help NOT seeing the parts and the whole simultaneously
Interesting, But does this argument, in your opinion "prove" or at least support the assertion that there must exist at least one non contingent or conditioned entity??

Last edited by Hank; 06-02-2020 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:39 PM   #5112
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It's not my definition. It's the bible's.

Bbiblical theology is logical, violating no laws of logic, which is more than be said for athesitic materialism.
It is bad enough if it was only yours, even the worse if it was the bibles'. It is irrelevant. And besides the point.

You can not support the definition that god is eternal, but the universe is not, by just saying so. You may believe this or intuit it, but it is beyond pure intellectual theory, description and ordinary rationality. Just as the concept of infinity is. Wed can chip away around the edges of infinity mathematically, considering if one "infinity" may be greater or less than another but it is only the tip of the iceberg of what we do not know.

Change for instance denotes nothing but change. You have no way of knowing if an infinite being can or cannot chose to change at will.

Infinity must include all possibilities we can conceive of. Change or no change, doers not answer the infinity conundrum.
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:21 PM   #5113
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In other words, you don't know what caused it?
And neither do you!
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:27 PM   #5114
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It's not my definition. It's the bible's.
Interesting. You wouldn't happen to have the chapter and verse handy?
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Old 06-02-2020, 06:34 PM   #5115
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Is the cat alive or dead? It does not matter.

Should we worship the Higgs Boson? Worship?
At least we know that the Higgs exists.
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