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Old 06-01-2020, 04:01 PM   #5086
Light
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Easy answer to both questions.

Our universe (matter and energy) is (if not itself infinite) surrounded by an infinite "container". Infinity itself which is an "entity" has by its nature (properties) no beginning nor end.

It therefore "never came into existence" (to answer Actor's question) and has "a cause" or it wouldn't exist (to answer boxcar's question).
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Old 06-01-2020, 05:26 PM   #5087
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Easy answer to both questions.

Our universe (matter and energy) is (if not itself infinite) surrounded by an infinite "container". Infinity itself which is an "entity" has by its nature (properties) no beginning nor end.

It therefore "never came into existence" (to answer Actor's question) and has "a cause" or it wouldn't exist (to answer boxcar's question).
According to you, then, the eternal God was caused by what?
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Old 06-01-2020, 05:28 PM   #5088
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No, you explain how any entity that has never come into existence could possibly exist.
You have claimed often that the universe is eternal. How could such a universe possibly exist?
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Old 06-01-2020, 07:59 PM   #5089
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You have claimed often that the universe is eternal.
No. I've said it could be eternal.

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How could such a universe possibly exist?
1. Why couldn't it?

2. I've explained how. You don't understand it.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:10 PM   #5090
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Our universe (matter and energy) is (if not itself infinite) surrounded by an infinite "container".
If the universe is infinite then there are two possibilities.
  1. The universe is filled with an infinite number of galaxies more or less uniformly distributed throughout the universe. That means that no matter which direction you look there would be at least one galaxy and the night sky would be white.
  2. The universe has a finite number of galaxies which contradicts the premise that the universe is infinite.
Conclusion: the universe is finite.
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Old 06-01-2020, 08:43 PM   #5091
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According to you, then, the eternal God was caused by what?
I'm not sure you understand. I implied that God is infinite since the universe is infinite and neither was "caused".
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:08 PM   #5092
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Conclusion: the universe is finite.
If the universe is finite, it's container is infinite.
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Old 06-01-2020, 09:42 PM   #5093
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If the universe is finite, it's container is infinite.
Not necessarily.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:11 PM   #5094
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No. I've said it could be eternal.
Then it couldn't have come into existence, which means it has no cause.

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1. Why couldn't it?
For the same reason you say that a personal, eternal being couldn't exist?

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2. I've explained how. You don't understand it.
If so, only because I don't speak your scientism gibberish.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:18 PM   #5095
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This is a very interesting point. A very sound argument can be made that NOTHING would or could exist, if an "infinite regress" of contingencies or conditions was a possibility. Lets take a cat for example.First, if the cat is dependent upon a finite number of conditions, then that means there is going to be a most fundamental condition (a last or terminating condition) in the series of conditions that the cat depends upon for its existence. For example, the cat is dependent upon the existence of its cells, which in turn are dependent upon amino acids and proteins, the amino acids and proteins depend on the existence of molecules, the molecules depend upon atoms, the atoms depend upon protons, the protons depend upon quarks, and so forth. With such a series, the quark (or something more fundamental) would be the terminating condition that the cat depends upon for its existence. Now, if the series regresses infinitely to more and more fundamental conditions that have the same existential status as the previous conditions, then the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly. But if the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly, then every hypothetical conditioned reality in the series would never have its conditions fulfilled and thus would never come into existence. ??
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:32 PM   #5096
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You have claimed often that the universe is eternal.
No. I've said it could be eternal.
Then it couldn't have come into existence, which means it has no cause.
So it needs no cause.

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Originally Posted by Actor
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How could such a universe possibly exist?
1. Why couldn't it?
For the same reason you say that a personal, eternal being couldn't exist?
Correction! I did not say such a being couldn't exist. I said there is no evidence that such a being does exist.

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2. I've explained how. You don't understand it.
If so, only because I don't speak your scientism gibberish.
Translation: you're uneducated and anti-science. We've covered this before.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:35 PM   #5097
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This is a very interesting point. A very sound argument can be made that NOTHING would or could exist, if an "infinite regress" of contingencies or conditions was a possibility. Lets take a cat for example.First, if the cat is dependent upon a finite number of conditions, then that means there is going to be a most fundamental condition (a last or terminating condition) in the series of conditions that the cat depends upon for its existence. For example, the cat is dependent upon the existence of its cells, which in turn are dependent upon amino acids and proteins, the amino acids and proteins depend on the existence of molecules, the molecules depend upon atoms, the atoms depend upon protons, the protons depend upon quarks, and so forth. With such a series, the quark (or something more fundamental) would be the terminating condition that the cat depends upon for its existence. Now, if the series regresses infinitely to more and more fundamental conditions that have the same existential status as the previous conditions, then the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly. But if the search for the fulfillment of conditions would go on endlessly, then every hypothetical conditioned reality in the series would never have its conditions fulfilled and thus would never come into existence. ??
Is the cat alive or dead?

The uncaused cause is the Higgs Boson, a.k.a., "the God particle." Should we worship the Higgs Boson?
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:51 PM   #5098
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So it needs no cause.

Correction! I did not say such a being couldn't exist. I said there is no evidence that such a being does exist.

Translation: you're uneducated and anti-science. We've covered this before.
Stay focused! Causes is what we're talking about. If the universe were eternal, it would need no cause because there are only two kinds of existences: Eternal or temporal (finite). If that which is eternal by nature was caused, then this means something temporal caused it, which would be self-contradictory. But we know the universe is not eternal because it is filled with Change and change requires causes, and very many changes are things coming into and going out of existence. In short, because the universe is not immutable, it cannot be eternal. Immutability is inextricably linked to eternalness.

Likewise, since God is eternal, he is not a caused entity. And since scripture teaches that one of God's attributes is immutability, then this is perfectly logical and harmonizes with his essence (nature) which is pure existence. Since God never came into existence, having no cause whatsoever, there can be no infinite regression; for infinite regression can only occur with temporal (finite) entities to which the ultimate cause is unknown or unknowable.
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Old 06-01-2020, 10:54 PM   #5099
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Is the cat alive or dead?

The uncaused cause is the Higgs Boson, a.k.a., "the God particle." Should we worship the Higgs Boson?
What caused the particle to come into existence?
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:30 PM   #5100
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Finite entities cannot create themselves. They need "outside" support for birth. They would have to have been created by another entity.

Our universe is considered by many scientists today, to possibly be only one of millions of universes (multiverses). That is the "container" I am talking about. And those millions of universes can also be just part of one super universe that contains them all just like our universe contains millions of Galaxies. And on and on.
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