Magnum Moon...done

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

This crop is looking worse and worse by the day.

I personally think all the Triple Crown races were taxing at a minimum pace wise, and the first two quite brutal. I think it has taken a toll on the horses that were in over their heads.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by cj

I personally think all the Triple Crown races were taxing at a minimum pace wise, and the first two quite brutal. I think it has taken a toll on the horses that were in over their heads.

The horses who have attended slow paces certainly have been exposed. Only Good Magic stepped up off those paces really, and he was already proven a real race horse.

Also gotta be cynical about any figure in slow paced race, even if its a closer.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Audible
Magnum Moon
Vino Rosso
Noble Indy

Audible is most talented, but he has been back from the farm for a while and not sure I have heard about any works.

Vino Rosso is a plodder to me, I guess he can spring a upset but don't see the talent there to be much of anything.

Noble Indy is not any good.

Magnum Moon was never going to run again. How many Pletcher's sent to the farm right after a race ever return?

Who knows if Audible is a good horse, just because he got 3rd in a Derby where conditions and actual physical contact took out half the field. Lots of horses finish in the top 3 of the derby to never run a lick again. Same with the Preakness. Same with the Belmont. He'll be retired anyway, so its moot. He's a Pletcher/Windstar duo, they rarely last past October, after having gone radio silent by July.

I was told Frosted was great for two years (and by some still am told), he was 6 for 19, 1 win as a 2yo, 2 wins as a 3 year old, 3 wins as a 4 year old.

Gronkowski has all of the hallmarks of a never do anything much again horse, or at best a Mubtahij 5 for 24 over 5 years. He went 1, 3, 0, 1, 0.

Vino Rosso, as long as he stays sound, will likely be a typical knock around, "horse for the state," Repole/Pletcher. I see him doing far better than Gronkowski. And people acting like the seperation at the Belmont between 1st and 4th was anything special are smoking crack.

Noble Indy was taken back and walked around the track in the Belmont, with Castellano literally not riding at all in the stretch as he was having a cordial chat with Geroux instead. It is why he's already back on the work tab. Likewise, his ride in the Derby was just plain weird . He cleared the scrum, on pace and trajectory to beat Bolt to the front, then was literally pulled up as Geroux stood all the way up in the irons staring back at Mendelssohn, and then rushes up with Mendelssohn to catch the back of the front, runs wide the whole way glued to Mendelssohn's side, only to be pulled up again, with Geroux turned all the way around again, looking back at Mendelssohn, who had just been pinched again, then eased by Moore. Bloodhorse has the stills, they speak for themselves. Who knows how good or bad the horse is, he doesn't appear to have been asked to do anything but show up since the LA Derby.

Justafarians don't get it both ways. If his competition is crap, his failure to achieve seperation speaks for itself. Either Vino Rosso is a good horse, or Justify isn't. He beat Vino Rosso in the Belmont, but not by enough to embarrass the horse or stamp himself as a worldbeater. Nor is Good Magic, who certainly didn't demolish Flameaway in the Blue Grass, was embarrased in the FOY, and has only beaten Bolt, Solomini, and flameaway on a fast track.

I am on record for having said that Bolt and Solomini were nothing special. I was agnostic about every other horse but Mendelssohn. I think this crop is proving it is a glorious case of emperor's new clothes. FWIW, TG has Justify slower than Gunnevera. I don't care about figs, but it certainly isn't the case that every voice of authority has much respect for this crop, even the best of it.

I see a lot of American Anthems in the making, all out to beat claimers.

[classhandicapper]

Magnum Moon is another of an endless list of Pletcher horses that he got primed for the Derby preps, won something important with, and then was either retired or didn't develop further.

It has to be both training method and intent.

He must be strategically trying to crank his horses up early in their careers to get important wins in the Derby preps. But then, it either takes a toll on them or they get passed up by horses trained with a more patient approach. In the mean time, with Grade 1 wins in the bank the connections get to cash in even if the horse never gets "really" good with further development.

[Afleet]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Hurt front leg...man these Pletcher horses can be brittle.

How many of his 4 graded winners this spring will actually end up having more of a career?

I stated before the Derby there is no way I woulds run him or Mendolsshon, if I owned either, on the quagmire of a track

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by papillon

I was told Frosted was great for two years (and by some still am told), he was 6 for 19, 1 win as a 2yo, 2 wins as a 3 year old, 3 wins as a 4 year old.

Gronkowski has all of the hallmarks of a never do anything much again horse, or at best a Mubtahij 5 for 24 over 5 years. He went 1, 3, 0, 1, 0.

Mubtaahij has won $5,780,332 (quite a lot more than Frosted). And is still racing as a 6 year old (and running ITM)! Sorry, can't knock this horse.

Noble Indy was a cheap yearling, I never bet those to win the Belmont Stakes.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by papillon

I see a lot of American Anthems in the making, all out to beat claimers.

Nearly half of St. Joe Bay's 30 career starts have been in stakes races. In fact, he's a multiple graded stakes winner who was 4th to Mind Your Biscuits in last year's Dubai Golden Shaheen.

He also topped American Anthem's best career Beyer twice.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Nearly half of St. Joe Bay's 30 career starts have been in stakes races. In fact, he's a multiple graded stakes winner who was 4th to Mind Your Biscuits in last year's Dubai Golden Shaheen.

He also topped American Anthem's best career Beyer twice.

Sadler and Hronis racing...a dangerous combo the past 5 years or so.

Funny, outside of that client hardly feels like Sadler trains for anyone.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Sadler and Hronis racing...a dangerous combo the past 5 years or so.

Funny, outside of that client hardly feels like Sadler trains for anyone.

I think he has one or two for Mercedes Stable and Jerry Moss and a couple others, but it's basically all Hronis or bust at this point.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

Nearly half of St. Joe Bay's 30 career starts have been in stakes races. In fact, he's a multiple graded stakes winner who was 4th to Mind Your Biscuits in last year's Dubai Golden Shaheen.

He also topped American Anthem's best career Beyer twice.

While all true, he has been dreadful since that trip to Dubai in seven subsequent starts. He certainly isn't a claimer but the change in barns seems to have given him a new lease on life.

[Robert Fischer]

Thought SJB was a warrior in that race and that (the more talented) American Anthem looked like he hung and was disappointing.

AA is supposed to be a headliner. Much different result than Ax Man, but I thought it was also an unexpected regression. Someone was alive to St. Joe Bay on the Pick-6... that was a tough beat (No idea what the probable was but, seem to recall only 2 horses were alive; 2SJB & 6Touching Rainbows - thought it was odd that no one had covered heavy into AA... ).

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

Can't disagree more. We've had 6 straight favorites win the Kentucky Derby. I don't think the general public is confused about the distance and who can win.

That's true, but out of the 6, half of these horses were never the same again. Always Dreaming, Nyquist and Orb. And those were ones that won the race. You go one year before that and I'll Have Another couldn't even finish the sequence and was retired too. Before that, there's stalwarts such as Super Saver, Mine That Bird and RIP Barbaro.

Yeah, these horses can make it once or twice and the public knows that. But what I notice is that longevity and stamina is God awful. Bred to be fast not to last. Out of the last 20 years there are more of these I could just go on and on about the winners. The ones that lose and disappear is even a longer one. Like this horse.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Thought SJB was a warrior in that race and that (the more talented) American Anthem looked like he hung and was disappointing.

AA is supposed to be a headliner. Much different result than Ax Man, but I thought it was also an unexpected regression. Someone was alive to St. Joe Bay on the Pick-6... that was a tough beat (No idea what the probable was but, seem to recall only 2 horses were alive; 2SJB & 6Touching Rainbows - thought it was odd that no one had covered heavy into AA... ).

AA was a bit dressed up off slow pace front end type wins, I actually thought this to be one of his better races.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by cj

While all true, he has been dreadful since that trip to Dubai in seven subsequent starts. He certainly isn't a claimer but the change in barns seems to have given him a new lease on life.

Dreadful is a bit harsh. I can forgive his two final starts of 2017, as he was returning from Dubai and also appeared to get the famous Desormeaux stretch ride or lack thereof which were completely uncharacteristic for the horse when not ridden by Desormeaux.

He might not have cared for the Oaklawn surface, but was slowly improving with the third off the layoff (improving his form on 3-time rival Recount). He then clearly had some traffic issues (checked, steadied) in his Oaklawn finale.

Ran into a buzzsaw in Stone Hands (the bubble burst in the San Carlos with a curious ride from Gutierrez) in his Santa Anita return but ran well and note his stellar Santa Anita record (11-3-5-1).

Overall, I agree Sadler seems to have a knack with these sorts of sprint types, but Miller may have given up a bit too soon or perhaps was taking a chance that his Oaklawn form and age wouldn't make him attractive at a $62.5K price tag.

[GMB@BP]

I agree with Spalding to a certain extent on the darkened form....

that being, being real, American Anthem is "ok" and had a lot a easy trip to dress up his form. I dont think he is nearly as talented as say Danzing Candy who won the race last year.