How do you spot a bad jockey?

[Tenacross]

A bad jockey usually fails to put their horse in a postion to win.
When in doubt, a bad jockey "sends".
When they can't make the lead, a bad jockey swings wide.
A bad jockey bases a horse's soundness by what other riders tell them in the room.
A bad jockey is dumb as a rock.
A bad jockey thinks you rate a horse with strength.
A bad jockey has no idea how much horse they have left.
A bad jockey has no idea how fast they are going.
The biggest fear of bad jockeys are horses.
The second biggest fear of bad jockeys are small barns.

[David-LV]

Originally Posted by toussaud

find whatever is riding Van Berg's horse these days.

I think a little respect is deserved by a man that has done as much as Hall Of Famer Jack Van Berg has done for racing.

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Life Time Wins----6387

Apple Blossom Handicap (1976)
Hawthorne Gold Cup Handicap (1976)
Secretariat Stakes (1976)
Los Angeles Handicap (1979, 1985)
Santa Anita Oaks (1981)
Rebel Stakes (1982)
Oaklawn Handicap (1983)
Super Derby (1984, 1987)
Cornhusker Handicap (1985)
Fantasy Stakes (1985)
Maryland Million Classic (1986)
Hollywood Derby (1986)
Strub Stakes (1988)
Woodward Stakes (1988)
Meadowlands Cup (1988)
Philip H. Iselin Handicap (1988)
Santa Anita Handicap (1988)
La Brea Stakes (1993)
Landaluce Stakes (2007)

American Classics / Breeders' Cup wins:
Kentucky Derby (1987)
Preakness Stakes (1984, 1987)
Breeders' Cup Classic (1988)

Racing awards
U.S. Champion Trainer by earnings (1976)
U.S. Champion Trainer by wins (9 times)
Eclipse Award for Outstanding Trainer (1984)
Big Sport of Turfdom Award (1987)

Honours
National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame (1985)

Significant horses
Gate Dancer, Alysheba


_________
David-LV

[shouldacoulda]

Originally Posted by jognlope

Keeps whipping even after horse has responded to cue, supposed to release any cue within 3 seconds of horse's response. Infuriates me.

Also the pony riders having their stirrups way too long is so aggravating, you need your stirrups up a bit to stay off the horse's back. Someone said it's because they might have to gallop suddenly to chase a loose horse. No that's not a reason, plenty of riders gallop with reasonably short stirrups.

I saw a jockey blow a race this week like that at Aqueduct I believe. His horse was gaining on the leader and he hit the horse so hard the horse turned his head like what the hell are you doing? Right before he veered to the stands side of the track. He was lucky to take second.

What bothers me is when the horse is obviously out of contention but is whipped abusively like it will make a difference. I hate seeing that even if I have money on the horse.

[shouldacoulda]

Originally Posted by shouldacoulda

I saw a jockey blow a race this week like that at Aqueduct I believe. His horse was gaining on the leader and he hit the horse so hard the horse turned his head like what the hell are you doing? Right before he veered to the stands side of the track. He was lucky to take second.

What bothers me is when the horse is obviously out of contention but is whipped abusively like it will make a difference. I hate seeing that even if I have money on the horse.

I should add that I only rode a horse once. It was not a pleasant experience. It was like being a weeble in the weeblemobile. I don't really feel qualified to criticize them. I might during a race but the job has to be harder than it looks and certainly is more dangerous than it looks.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

TLG had a great analysis today on talking horses.

Anyone catch that ??

Junior Alvarado's error on SWINGING AT SIRO'S

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

Junior Alvarado's error on SWINGING AT SIRO'S

*cpu froze when posting^*

TLG was completely right with his point, and it was a well illustrated anecdote of "bad jockey" technique, but then the funny thing is Junior Alvarado proceeds to win like 4 races in a row !!

This is horseracing

[DJofSD]

So, is a good jock on his worse day still better than the worse jock on his best day?

[Tenacross]

Originally Posted by DJofSD

So, is a good jock on his worse day still better than the worse jock on his best day?

Yes. A good jock on the best horse will find a way to win because they understand horses and horse racing. Even if they are not 100%. A bad jockey can still find a way to lose even when on much the best. Jockeys are tremendous athletes, but athletic ability will only carry them a small part of the way.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

One thing I look for is a scared jockey. Does he feel confortable with horses right behind him?

How do you know they are scared or uncomfortable? Do you ask them? Zoom in on their faces and read their expressions?

[breeze]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

One other thing I watch for is leg strength. Some riders can't stay crouched for the entire race and have to stand up/lean back a little. My belief is this causes their weight to be distributed in such a way as to slow the horse.

This becomes most noticeable (to me) when watching head on replays.

I also watch the rider's elbows during head on replays. A rider who is "on his belly" (low crouch) through the stretch will have his body closer to the horse's neck than those who can't maintain a crouch. Riders who are crouched will have a wide wing span to their elbows. Riders who lose their crouch and either stand up or lean back tend to have narrow wing spans to their elbows because they are further away from the horse's neck and must therefore extend their arms forward (which straightens the elbows.)

.

These examples show different techniques. Watch riders in europe, they raise up at the end of the race to push a horse on. In the US some riders raise up in the early stages as a signal to the horse to relax and not use up precious energy fighting them to slow down.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by DJofSD

Jeff, some can't even stay crouched down when they break from the gate. Even worse, they use the reins to maintain their balance.

The ones that are the worse are those which actually fall into the saddle. A good indicator of this is the horse throwing it's head up.

No rider would want to stay crouched when breaking out of the gate. A horse "sits/crouches" as they push off. A rider has to keep his center of gravity behind the horse to break and recover for the next series of strides. It is a very different motion the first few jumps out of the gate.

The rein are used to help the rider and horse balance. A horse that takes no hold of the bit is a difficult ride. It is not like gymnastics where a rider can sit up and put their arms out to the side for balance.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

DJ, Good points. One of the things I hate the most is seeing a horse I've bet on snapping its head fighting the rider... And then 5 seconds later the announcer chimes in (on cue) with "the horse is rank"...

As if it's somehow the HORSE'S fault.



-jp

.

This could go either way. A rank horse that the trainer is still trying different bits on. Or a rider who expects a horse to take the bit and gets frustrated to easily when they don't comply.

Or a trainers has said they want "proof" that the rider tried to keep the horse slow early. A horse that can be held by an exercise rider through strength in the am might not be able to be held by a jock in a saddle held on by elastic girths in the pm. It takes leverage to hold a horse slow in morning gallops. The stirrups are used to wedge against the pull of the horse.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by pondman

This is the result of being to weak to restrain a horse early. Many of the women who want to be jockeys, just aren't strong enough in the arms and shoulders. So they've got to stand up. This puts an enormous strain on the horse. I was recently in a box with a trainer at SA, and the trainer started yelling, "See, they shouldn't let those women ride. They're driving up my insurance premiums."

The hall of fame jockeys sit motionless on a horse. They've got the ability to ask a horse with their hands and feet. They don't want to give their intentions away to the other jockeys. The poorest of the jockeys flail around, signalling their intent.

I already touched on using strength early to restrain a horse. No jockey has the muscle of most exercise riders,male or female. The muscle mass would weigh too much. All jockeys that have to gallop in the am,use their stirrups as leverage. This can not be done in a race saddle with elastic girths.

A rider has to be very very fit as opposed to having extreme strength. A female rider has the same strength as a male rider since they do the same workouts. A male can body build more muscle than a female but that would make a jock way to heavy to ride.

"The hall of fame jockeys sit motionless on a horse. They've got the ability to ask a horse with their hands and feet."

This is correct except the feet are not used as cues. This does contradict your first opinion on female jocks though,as it is those riders who least impede a horse that get horses to run their best.

[breeze]

Originally Posted by McSchell_Racing

I agree with you TBW.There is nothing worse then a jock who thinks all horses fly out of the gate on their own..A little known secret for a rider to breakout of the gate fast is to watch the starters hand..When his hand moves to the button be ready.

The rest of your post was spot on.

A rider should focus their eyes 5-10 lengths down the track to where they want to be after the initial thrust out of the gate. They should let the break be on auto-pilot as far as cues to horse,regrouping of reins etc. A riders ears and peripheral vision should be on the last in horses.

Very few starters have a tell as to when they are going to push it. If you are looking at them,you are giving the horse a short stride cue with your body language. It is sort of like how when riding a turn you look/aim at the horse you are passing inside/left hip even though you are riding outside his right hip.

[DJofSD]

Originally Posted by breeze

No rider would want to stay crouched when breaking out of the gate. A horse "sits/crouches" as they push off. A rider has to keep his center of gravity behind the horse to break and recover for the next series of strides. It is a very different motion the first few jumps out of the gate.

The rein are used to help the rider and horse balance. A horse that takes no hold of the bit is a difficult ride. It is not like gymnastics where a rider can sit up and put their arms out to the side for balance.

If the jock has his center of gravity behind the horse when it breaks, he's going to, at best, be behind the motion and at worse falling back into the saddle.

Any rider that use the reins to maintain his balance is a bad rider. A good rider is always balanced without using the reins while in two point position.