A New Idea - Page 2 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

DeanT · 08-27-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren Henry

Or old men against young women?

I think that would be 10,000 of us against............. Theresia

Handicapping contests are always so longshot based that I have been in several discussions with players on how to make them more fair and fun. I wonder if one where the ML is used would be better - eg, you make a bet based on the ML of the horse with a set bankroll, to make $100 per bet. If you choose a 2-1 horse you have to make a $33 bet, and have $67 left, a 10-1 ML horse would cost $10 and you would have $90 left, and so on.

I wonder if that would still be longshot biased. I dont think so.

Anyway, slightly more complex and maybe not fun at all. I do wonder though if anyone have some ideas on how to make tournies better and more fun. Since it is a horseplayer tourney, by horseplayers, it should incorporate something new, and outside the box a little bit, imo.

Your ideas are very fun Warren. Well done.

miesque · 08-27-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanT

I think that would be 10,000 of us against............. Theresia

What else is new, thats pretty much the status quo for me.

Horseplayersbet.com · 08-27-2009, 12:47 PM

This just came to me. Have a contest, $2 win place format. But we calculate the winning odds based on if the track had a 10% takeout and no breakage.

I'm not kidding.

Warren Henry · 08-27-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanT

I think that would be 10,000 of us against............. Theresia

Based on what I have seen so far, that would not be a fair contest. She would win easily.

Bobzilla · 08-27-2009, 02:24 PM

One of the best suggestions I'm aware of was made by an occasional poster here at PA, TEJAS KIDD, who brought up an alternative to the $2W $2P for the NHC. TK, probably one of the most experienced tournament players in the country, made this recommendation to the NTRA and it was within the context of the annual two day event in Las Vegas every January which consists of 15 races both days of which 8 are mandatory and 7 are optional.

It works by having 3 sets of 5 wagers each. The first set is for $10 Win bets with a 5/1 cap. The second set is for $5 Win bets with an 11/1 cap. The third set is for $2 Win bets with a 29/1 cap. The most anyone could make with any bet would be $60. The beauty of this format is that it allows the player to weigh his/her wagers based on their degree of confidence in the bet. If a player loves a horse who is 9/2 and the player has fair value at 5/2 that player can use one of his/her 5 allotted $10 bets to get back $55 on the 9/2 horse. This would be especially useful if it's the end of the day and the player would like to have that big hit to climb the leaderboard but accomplishing this with a horse the player actually loves and at an overlaid price. It beats taking blind stabs at 29/1 horses who you may or may not be able to make a case for. If you do happen to like a 29/1 horse you can still save one of your 5 allotted $2 Win bets for it.

Seems like a good format because strategy is very much in play. Furthermore the set of plays that the bet was chosen from reflects the strength of opinion that the player actually had for the horse's chances. Wouldn't it be nice to hit a "Capper" with a 5/1 horse who you backed with conviction?

For the HANA tournament maybe we could have 15 races from 3 or 4 tracks with 8 mandatory races selected by Jeff P , Ross Gallo and Cary Fotias, and it would be nice if all three of America's racing surface types were represented as to test the player's skills on all three (i.e. dirt, grass, synthetic).

Again, I want to give credit to TEJAS KIDD for making this suggestion to the NTRA. I think this would be an improvement over the current $2W $2P format.

DeanT · 08-27-2009, 03:59 PM

Well done. I like that.

rokitman · 09-02-2009, 12:10 AM

Illegal.

highnote · 09-02-2009, 12:21 AM

What is illegal about it?

PaceAdvantage · 09-02-2009, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

What is illegal about it?

If entry fees are collected, unless ALL such fees and money is returned to the players in the form of prize money, it violates various federal and/or state lottery laws.

And even if all money is returned to the players, there's probably lots of hoops you'd have to jump through to make sure you don't get busted for running this kind of thing.

highnote · 09-02-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

If entry fees are collected, unless ALL such fees and money is returned to the players in the form of prize money, it violates various federal and/or state lottery laws.

And even if all money is returned to the players, there's probably lots of hoops you'd have to jump through to make sure you don't get busted for running this kind of thing.

Think of a drag race at your local speedway. The drivers pay an entry fee. If they win they get a trophy and some cash. Drag racing is certainly a contest of skill and doesn't violate any laws that I know of.

There must be hundreds of similar examples a handicapping contest could be modeled after.

PaceAdvantage · 09-02-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

Think of a drag race at your local speedway. The drivers pay an entry fee. If they win they get a trophy and some cash. Drag racing is certainly a contest of skill and doesn't violate any laws that I know of.

There must be hundreds of similar examples a handicapping contest could be modeled after.

Tell it to the judge...

Seriously though, lottery and sweepstakes laws make it very difficult to run any sort of "handicapping contest" where ANY portion of the entry fee goes to the "house."

rokitman · 09-09-2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

What is illegal about it?

What PA said. You cannot be "the house." I talked with this guy about something very similar some time ago.

rokitman · 09-09-2009, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swetyejohn

Think of a drag race at your local speedway. The drivers pay an entry fee. If they win they get a trophy and some cash. Drag racing is certainly a contest of skill and doesn't violate any laws that I know of.

There must be hundreds of similar examples a handicapping contest could be modeled after.

Run a 3 number fundraising lottery and use the last whole-dollar numbers from the total W/P/S pools at Belmont to determine today's winning number. You can make some adjustments, if necessary, Dutch.

Gorrex · 09-09-2009, 04:20 PM

Legality varies from state to state. If it is held online then the laws will be from whichever state the servers reside in.

MANY states it is perfectly legal. Some it needs special approval. Some its completely illegal as it would be seen as illegal gambling. By charging entry that person is in essence gambling they will be the best handicapper.

Normally contests are one of two things:

Fake money wagering - Only the end prize is won.

Real money wagering - Each bet is paid according to pari-mutuels rules. The first is much easier to deal with, the second you would have to host it through a track/otb/adw or have your own contracts with the tracks. If you did it on your own with real money you would need pari-mutuel licensing from the host state.

You could also book the wagers as I believe was the idea in other posts. This is almost always without question illegal in the US. It is possible to pull off legally, but very very tricky.

highnote · 09-09-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Seriously though, lottery and sweepstakes laws make it very difficult to run any sort of "handicapping contest" where ANY portion of the entry fee goes to the "house."

Difficult perhaps, but not impossible. The key is to figure out a way to do it that does not violate the law.