Turning Poker Players Into Horseplayers

[Johnny V]

A lot of people seem to think that many are making a living or profit from poker. Now I am not a poker player at all except when I was in the military I did play some. So I am not an expert by any means. I have only known 3 people that have made their living from poker over the years. They seldom play at casinos or racetracks. They mostly play in private games. Two of them cheat and the other has hinted and I suspect that he is also some kind of card mechanic. They have played the horses only occasionally and have drummed up some games with people at the track in the past for games later that evening.

[tzipi]

I see alot of professional poker players who have made a living playing poker on tv. Not just one hit big tournament winners. I'm talking about Ivey,Brunson,Negreanu,Gavin Smith,Hellmuth,Nguyen,Furgeson,Duke,etc,etc. Too many to list. Lifetime and yearly winnings are listed on poker sites. You see these guys in the media and on tv. You never see horseplayers in the same light or their big money plays or big lifetime earnings shown or posted. I think that's the big difference.

Can't be paying ESPN to lie because alot of these guys houses have been shown on tv "MTV Cribs Style" and they are pretty darn big and nice. Not only do a lot of professionals make a decent living off their play but alot are also rewarded by the industry with sponsorship,etc money.

Very hard to name many bigtime money winners over a lifetime in horse racing or even name household names. That's the big difference in my opinion. NOT knocking racing and it's players as I obviously love the game and love the sport itself even more. Just saying there's a difference in what people see between these two games in the media.

[Sekrah]

Originally Posted by tzipi

I see alot of professional poker players who have made a living playing poker on tv. Not just one hit big tournament winners. I'm talking about Ivey,Brunson,Negreanu,Gavin Smith,Hellmuth,Nguyen,Furgeson,Duke,etc,etc. Too many to list. Lifetime and yearly winnings are listed on poker sites. You see these guys in the media and on tv. You never see horseplayers in the same light or their big money plays or big lifetime earnings shown or posted. I think that's the big difference.

Can't be paying ESPN to lie because alot of these guys houses have been shown on tv "MTV Cribs Style" and they are pretty darn big and nice. Not only do a lot of professionals make a decent living off their play but alot are also rewarded by the industry with sponsorship,etc money.

Very hard to name many bigtime money winners over a lifetime in horse racing or even name household names. That's the big difference in my opinion. NOT knocking racing and it's players as I obviously love the game and love the sport itself even more. Just saying there's a difference in what people see between these two games in the media.

ESPN used to produce a show for the NTRA National Handicapping Championship. They stopped doing it. They should bring that and other tournaments in. Mic the guys up and have them talk out their handicapping process for the specific races. The hole-card camera is what transformed poker.

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by Sekrah

ESPN used to produce a show for the NTRA National Handicapping Championship. They stopped doing it. They should bring that and other tournaments in. Mic the guys up and have them talk out their handicapping process for the specific races. The hole-card camera is what transformed poker.

Totally agree, the hole card was the best thing for poker and made it more fun for fans. It would be great for horse racing to show the tournament again. Would be cool to watch.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by upset

Maybe in the basement under the dripping pipes. But the best inside information you can get is who owes Davila money from poker, Then he blocks and Davila races.

You lost me.

[Cubbymac26]

Originally Posted by ernie simons

Me thinks if you do a little math on the rake in poker...lower limits of course...it's not much different than the take out at the track. Even worse if you throw the dealer a white or two after every win.
I could be wrong. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to let me know.

im a poker dealer/deg horse player in a casino and ill give u the breakdown

in a 2-4 limit holdem if the pot is 40 the casino takes 4 plus u tip the dealer 1 or 2 thats 6 off the table so thats like around 15 percent which is close to the normal wps take out

so in other words if a 2-4 game starts out 10 handed everybody starts with a 100 the casino and dealer drain the game in 5 hours so in theory the track and poker are close in higher limit games its a lot less effected by the rake i

hope this makes sense

and finally if every track had a poker room there would be many more horseplayers...u always see kids betting a race just for quick action

[thaskalos]

Young people don't play much live poker, because online poker is much faster, and more convenient. And, like tzipi said, it is well known that more than a few online poker players have been very successful for years, a fact that gives credibility to the game, which is something that horse racing currently lacks.

It is true that only a very small percentage of poker players win over the long haul, but it is also true that the game's brighters stars have been amazingly successful, and it has nothing to do with luck. I am well acquainted with two online poker players in their mid 20's. They both deposited $600 in an online account at a popular poker site, and in a little over three years they have both become millionaires. Patrik Antonius, arguably the best and most consistent online poker player, won over $8 million last year alone...DOCUMENTED.

Does horse racing have any role models like these to offer to the young people it is trying to attract? I asked this question in a post here a few months ago, and CharlieD was quick to reply with an article of a British bettor who has won millions of dollars, while routinely wagering $50,000+ a race, into the massive pools overseas. Well...in this country, the game is played somewhat differently...

[Pace Cap'n]

Originally Posted by Cubbymac26

im a poker dealer/deg horse player in a casino and ill give u the breakdown

in a 2-4 limit holdem if the pot is 40 the casino takes 4 plus u tip the dealer 1 or 2 thats 6 off the table so thats like around 15 percent which is close to the normal wps take out

How much would the rake be if the stakes were 20-40? Or 200-400?

Of all gambling games, only horseracing and poker are considered to be +EV. That's because you don't have to make a wager on every race or every hand. In each game you can wait for a favorable situation and then send it in.

[Cubbymac26]

Originally Posted by Pace Cap'n

How much would the rake be if the stakes were 20-40? Or 200-400?

Of all gambling games, only horseracing and poker are considered to be +EV. That's because you don't have to make a wager on every race or every hand. In each game you can wait for a favorable situation and then send it in.

in 20-40 and 200-400 the rake is a time collection from each player each half hour

in the games ive dealt 20-40 there are two types of rake ive seen the casino take $1 on 40$1 on 80 $1 on 160 and $1 on 320........for a max of 4 a pot

and in 20-40 ive seen the rake be each person pays $7 every 30 minutes

in 200-400 the rake is $13 per player per half hour,,,

now consider there on average 34 hands dealt in an hour so maybe somebody can elaberate on the comparison per capita on the rake vs takeout at the track

here are the rake amounts for the other stakes

2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 5-10 limit holdem is 10% $4max

1-2 no limit is the same
2-5no limit $2 on 20 $1 at 45 $1 at 60
5-10no limit is $6 per player per half hour

so as u can see the higher u play the less effect the rake generally has but u also factor in a 1 or 2 dollar tip each hand so im curious to see somebody disect these numbers and see which is more fair to the better racing or poker

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by Pace Cap'n

How much would the rake be if the stakes were 20-40? Or 200-400?

Of all gambling games, only horseracing and poker are considered to be +EV. That's because you don't have to make a wager on every race or every hand. In each game you can wait for a favorable situation and then send it in.

Very few poker players make large amounts of money online. Fewer than 10% make any money online. There are two types of online poker players , tournament players and ring game players. The tournaments players have huge swings from year to year. The ring game players fall into two groups; Grinders and high stakes players. The high stakes all sit around playing each losing some in rakes till someone moves up over their head and gets taken to the cleaners. The grinders play at low stakes but play a bunch of tables. They are almost like robots. The days of college kids playing one table at low stakes before going to bed are over and has been over for sometime. I do not see any of these poker players becoming horseplayers. I think that having poker tables at race tracks might actually get some horseplayers to spend more time playing poker and less time playing the ponies. JMO

[appistappis]

2010 reality.....forget about rakes and takeouts.....as long as it costs about $20 just to sit down at a racetrack and zero to get in a poker room WE ARE NOT going to attract new players.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Derby Deck Hero Cards $9.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catalog ID: 992C (Drawings!)

Each deck of playing cards features fifty-two of the greatest horse racing personalities in Derby history. The face of each playing card is colorfully illustrated with amusing caricatures and tidbits of knowledge about such Derby luminaries as Seattle Slew, Pat Day, D Wayne Lukas, Smarty Jones, Eddie Arcora, Calumet Farms, and many more.

This poker-sized deck is sure be a hit with racing fans of all ages!
Click to enlarge

[Watcher]

Originally Posted by kenwoodallpromos

Derby Deck Hero Cards $9.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Catalog ID: 992C (Drawings!)

Each deck of playing cards features fifty-two of the greatest horse racing personalities in Derby history. The face of each playing card is colorfully illustrated with amusing caricatures and tidbits of knowledge about such Derby luminaries as Seattle Slew, Pat Day, D Wayne Lukas, Smarty Jones, Eddie Arcora, Calumet Farms, and many more.

This poker-sized deck is sure be a hit with racing fans of all ages!
Click to enlarge

What's with all the horse racing themed playing cards these days?

[Watcher]

There is a definite cross-over between horse racing and poker players. I myself, being a mid-twenties former high volume poker player, is one example.

From my experience with horse bettors, there seem to be two types: statistical and visual.

Statistical bettors are the ones pouring over past performances and pace figures. They understand the number side of the game, and where the value lays.

Visual bettors are the ones that are always down at the paddock. These bettors judge the current look of the horse. They look over the DRF, but not to the same degree as the statistical bettors.

This is identical to the type of players you find at the poker table. You have bettors that play purely by the numbers (most online winners) and those that are typically visual (the likes of high stakes tournament pros like Phil Ivey).

However, this notion that you can just slap a cardroom on the side of a track and it will flock people in is a little mis-aligned. Hollywood Park has an adjacent cardromm, for example.

There needs to be a set process. A way to not only create interest from the poker players in horse racing, but to guide them up the learning curve. The reason poker was able to boom wasn't just because of the television. My generation saw Chris Moneymaker win the WSOP and millions of dollars, and we started playing at home with friends.

Our home games quickly escalated to a move online. This move was of utmost importance to the poker boom. Young poker players, and those new to the game, now had the ability to see so many hands per hour and log so much time learning the basics of the game, that it helped them position themselves into future winners.

So, with regards to the implementation of a cross-over campaign, there must be two aspects successfully applied to achieve success.

1. Generate interest
2. Teach them up the learning curve

Number one can't be done by merely building the cardroom. The operators of the cardroom, once it's visitors and base players rise to a decent level, will need to implement a system of cross-promotion. The worst thing in the world would be to just assume a cross-over would occur, and not utilize your player base across both betting avenues.

For example, a loyalty program, or "rake back" scheme, out of the cardroom that entices or forces people to use the money or points earned via the track betting, entry, food, etc.

For example, free entry to the "silks club" for players that play more than 3 hours at the poker table. Or automatic entry into the gates for anyone that plays poker for more than 30 minutes.

Number two can't be done by merely housing "how to bet" sessions. These won't attract your target audience. You'll need to utilize all sorts of standard and creative ways to begin teaching the poker players about the game.

For example, large poster boards throughout the inside of the cardroom explaining the types of bets, explaining how to read the DRF, and showing how much is in any carryover pool.

For example, pushing the players online or the the simulcast area where they can bet a multitude of races, which will help them advance up the learning curve.

To conclude this post, I don't diminish the feasibility of using poker to attract horse players. But I am skeptical of it being implemented correctly with those currently running the show.

However, if they brought in professional individuals with a past experience in the casino or poker gaming industry, this idea has a chance. Those individuals might also be able to teach our current operators a thing or two about running a successful business.

[ernie simons]

Originally Posted by Cubbymac26

im a poker dealer/deg horse player in a casino and ill give u the breakdown

in a 2-4 limit holdem if the pot is 40 the casino takes 4 plus u tip the dealer 1 or 2 thats 6 off the table so thats like around 15 percent which is close to the normal wps take out

so in other words if a 2-4 game starts out 10 handed everybody starts with a 100 the casino and dealer drain the game in 5 hours so in theory the track and poker are close in higher limit games its a lot less effected by the rake

So a 2-4 10 handed game has a 15% rake...and the rake at Aq is 16%....how is takeout and rake closer at higher limits? Looks pretty close right there.