Watchmaker on board member's fanbase idea

[BlueShoe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Racing is already losing its most loyal customers at an alarming rate. They are either dying off or moving to nursing homes. It is at the current time not replacing them in sufficient numbers to survive. If you visit any simulcast center, you will quick see the problem. Almost everybody there is at least in there 60s. Many are well into their 70s. 10 years from now a third to half of those bettors won't be there. In 20 years almost all of them will be gone.

If another trend continues and certain predictions come true, racing will lose them even sooner and faster. On earlier threads the recent sharp price increases and the possibility of ceasing the printed hard copy of the Daily Racing Form has been discussed. Have stated this several times and will say it again; the older hard core players that are racing's loyal customer base are not going to start printing online pp's if the DRF hard copy goes away. Most of these old guys do not even have a computer and do not use one, and they are not going to suddenly start now. At the SoCal racetracks and otb sites I attend have seen very, very few patrons with pp's that they printed out at home and brought with them. There has already been a lot of griping about the price of a DRF, but take it away completely, which a few believe is what the Form actually wishes to do, and these old guys that are the loyal base will quit and stay home, and they will not be opening ADWs and wagering from home, they just will be out of the game.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by BlueShoe

If another trend continues and certain predictions come true, racing will lose them even sooner and faster. On earlier threads the recent sharp price increases and the possibility of ceasing the printed hard copy of the Daily Racing Form has been discussed. Have stated this several times and will say it again; the older hard core players that are racing's loyal customer base are not going to start printing online pp's if the DRF hard copy goes away. Most of these old guys do not even have a computer and do not use one, and they are not going to suddenly start now. At the SoCal racetracks and otb sites I attend have seen very, very few patrons with pp's that they printed out at home and brought with them. There has already been a lot of griping about the price of a DRF, but take it away completely, which a few believe is what the Form actually wishes to do, and these old guys that are the loyal base will quit and stay home, and they will not be opening ADWs and wagering from home, they just will be out of the game.

I agree with you 100%.

The DRF doesn't seem to realize that there is still a significant stigma attached to betting on horses...and that a certain segment of the population cannot afford to spend much time handicapping in front of the computer...because their spouses are not very receptive of the idea of gambling.

IMO...the current demise of the printed product of the DRF plays a major role in the serious player's disenchantment with the game...and I am not talking about the price increases.

In the Chicago area, some of the tracks that are offered for wagering are not even covered by the available DRFs -- while other tracks are limited to only 6 past-performance lines per horse -- so the non-online player has to use the sketchy racing programs sold at the OTBs...which are even worse.

Many of those players who refuse to bet from home are not doing so because they want to. They are doing so in order to keep peace in the family...

[Aerocraft67]

Some good points about the lag between on/off track bettors adapting online resources and DRF migrating online while making the print product more dear, but the prohibitive economics of supporting a print publication make that migration inevitable. That's not to say there isn't a viable business model for robust printed past performances at the track, but pinning the vitality of the game on DRF maintaining a fat newspaper at every track is unrealistic.

[therussmeister]

At Canterbury, any track not included I'm the two editions of the form can be printed at a self-service kiosk for $1.00/track. At this cost, I look forward to the day when hard copies of the form are discontinued so I can buy whatever tracks I want at $1.00 each.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=thaskalos]
IMO...the current demise of the printed product of the DRF plays a major role in the serious player's disenchantment with the game...and I am not talking about the price increases.

QUOTE]

I assume you'd view $3.50 as a fair price for the Form? IF so, do you think an incremental $4 really matters? I don't believe it for a second.

Reasons for the demise in US racing (in order of importance):
1) Proliferation of alternative gaming
2) Take is too high b/c #1 provide alternatives
3) The Dumbing Down of America (yes, I'm serious)
4) Product hasn't been properly marketed for yrs
5) Perception of racing as being fixed or horses drugged (much more truth to the latter)
...........
57) Demise of the printed DRF

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by Bullet Plane

Do the other dumb stuff, and the people will continue to leave in droves. Horse racing is too complex for the 20's to 30's crowd. Let them play the slots like idiots, until they grow up to be adults and play the horses at around 50-60 years of age.

Unbelievable. "Idiot" young people are not the ones filling up the slot machines. That's pretty clear. Older people are playing the slots. Making fun of smart, successful younger people does not get them to play your game.

No, racing is not too complex for young people. That's ridiculous. These young people and kids todays can hack computers, write intelligent computer programs and whatever else but can't understand a form? No.

Pretty sure most young people are smart and are doing ok in the world. Maybe they want to play other sports and games with better advantages/lower takeout. Games where they don't see drugs infractions everyday in the media on horses you have to bet. Not really idiots huh. Should they just do what you or I want to do Bullet? Should they give into high takeout racing so you can call them smart? Choosing other games with lower take out, I'd say they are not too dumb.

My friends like to bet recent high powered Green Bay at home against the spread the last two seasons. See how many times they won that bet. We couldn't have made that money at the track unless I hit a big carryover pick six's. And I probably will never do that
I enjoy the track very much and go alot Bullet but making fun of younger people calling them "idiots" for not playing your game or getting a huge chunk taken from your bets, doesn't make them dumb. What happened to greyhound racing or Harness. HUGE following back in the day. Were you or whoever dumb for not playing their game? There's always reasons things decline. And there's more better ways to get people to the track.

[thaskalos]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

IMO...the current demise of the printed product of the DRF plays a major role in the serious player's disenchantment with the game...and I am not talking about the price increases.

QUOTE]

I assume you'd view $3.50 as a fair price for the Form? IF so, do you think an incremental $4 really matters? I don't believe it for a second.

Reasons for the demise in US racing (in order of importance):
1) Proliferation of alternative gaming
2) Take is too high b/c #1 provide alternatives
3) The Dumbing Down of America (yes, I'm serious)
4) Product hasn't been properly marketed for yrs
5) Perception of racing as being fixed or horses drugged (much more truth to the latter)
...........
57) Demise of the printed DRF

I respect your opinion...but happen to disagree with you in this case.

Notice that I was talking about the "serious" player in the post that you quoted.

You will never convince me that the serious horseplayer is leaving the game for the mindless games offered at the casinos.

He is leaving the game because of his disgust over the current product. And the lack of adequate printed PPs sure doesn't help...

[Tom]

Do serious players even use the printed DRF?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Tom

Do serious players even use the printed DRF?

Don't bet on that...because you'll lose.

[Tom]

I just find it kind funny that anyone would find much info in it.
Formulator, yes, but the printed version?
Slim pickings.

[Charli125]

Originally Posted by Bullet Plane

I think Watchmaker is on the right track. Serve the clientele that is currently at the track. Zero tolerance for drunks and loud rock and roll music. Play Ole' Blue Eyes, a little Satchmo, etc. and the people you have will remain.

Do the other dumb stuff, and the people will continue to leave in droves. Horse racing is too complex for the 20's to 30's crowd. Let them play the slots like idiots, until they grow up to be adults and play the horses at around 50-60 years of age.

That is generally the age where brain power overcomes hormones.

Maybe you're being facetious and if so, I apologize. I find this to be so over the top that I hope, yet doubt, that it's a joke.

If you're being serious though...What a ridiculous, pompous, small-minded generalization.

Maybe you don't understand that if you continue to serve ONLY the clientele that are currently at the track, then the majority of your clientele will be dead in the next 20-30 years.

Maybe the folks in their 20's and 30's have access to other gambling options where the rake is less than 22%. Maybe, just maybe, they're smart enough to know that their time is better spent focusing on something where more than 2% of the participants are profitable. Maybe they are more interested in making money than spending a day at the track surrounded by old fuddy-duddies like yourself.

Just because you don't like those damn kids with their rock n' roll devil music doesn't mean they're not the future customers of racing.

Anything other than a joint approach to support current customers and to create future customers is a failed marketing strategy.

[jelly]

The Industry Is not looking for people to gamble on their sport.


The Industry Is looking to entertain people.


They are looking to entertain people with a $8 racing form,with 22% takeout and 5 horse fields.


A good gamble Is entertaining, a bad gamble Is not!


Good luck.

[jorcus99]

I think most of us who are serious handicappers feel that being a student of the game is the only way any other human can enjoy horseracing. We almost exclude the other audience by perpetuating the feeling that they are at huge disadvantage by not throwing themselves into a college level pursuit of handicapping horse races. What some of the marketing studies are trying to show is that there is this other world of gamblers that can be drawn into racing if you don't scare them off before they get in the door.

We as handicappers take for granted what we have access to now. Speed figures, Pace numbers, video replays, The time of every horse that worked out that day. The list goes on. Before the 1980's almost none of this was available. The average fan who went to the track was the same as the people that go to the casinos today. They did not care to become experts. They just went for the action and the chance to win some money.

I had to do some work at a small inner city casino last year. I had to meet my contact at 8:00am and this little tin can of a casino was crawling with people. I doubt one person in there was aware that the takout on the slots were 8 or 9 %. A brutal rate when you consider the plays/hour. They don't care as long as they think they can win. I was talking to someone once about my interest in horse racing and they told me they were good at slots. I did not know someone could be good at slots but as long as they believe they are what does it matter.

The casino people do not care about takeout, drugs, or the quality of the horses they would be watching. They less the know the better. Give them a quick pick exacta a free hot dog and just tell them how good they are at playing horses.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Plays per hour can be enormous for Horseplayers. I would say that many Horseplayers surpass what many slot players play in one hour, and that could include different wagers as well as amount wagered, though I think a fair comparison is simply handle per hour.

Slot players aren't cognizant of takeout, and either are most Horseplayers, but it is all about bang for the buck, and a psychological feeling that you are close to winning. I think that is something slot operators have a good idea about and they milk it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by jelly

The Industry Is not looking for people to gamble on their sport.


The Industry Is looking to entertain people.


They are looking to entertain people with a $8 racing form,with 22% takeout and 5 horse fields.


A good gamble Is entertaining, a bad gamble Is not!


Good luck.

What happened to you on that NYRA giveaway thread you started? I'm still waiting on your praise for NYRA's RaceQuest...or do you only point out the negatives that you perceive?