Is the Drug Bill about the destroy the business of Horse Racing?

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by Cannon shell

You need drugs worse than any horse does.

You've been wrong many, many times before ... in just this thread, even! No surprise at all that you're wrong yet again. We've come to expect it of you, horseman.

[saratoga guy]

Originally Posted by Kelso

Oh, it appears I've hurt the sensitive, selfish, drug-happy horseman's feelings.

Why don't you take it down a notch? That's probably at least the fifth time you've insulted the guy with the "drug-happy", "selfish", "greedy" nonsense.

Take my word for it, you're so far off-base you're embarassing yourself.

If you've got a decent argument to make for the bill, do it.

Start here: Give me some concrete positives for the sport of horse-racing you anticipate would result from the passage of this bill...

And again I'll refer to the Steven Crist article: He, too, is against the bill. Where do you think Crist misses the mark?

http://www.drf.com/news/federal-regu...e-horse-racing

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Cannon shell

Listen, it is ok to admit that you really don't understand the issue. I mean how could you? You are blinded by contempt for people you don't know about things that you have no comprehension of.

"Genuine welfare of the horse"? What would you know about this? To people like you they are but numbers on a page. You think you know something about horses because you read some quotes in the form but lets face it you probably couldn't tell a filly from a colt.

Your baseless attacks on me are the disgrace. You wouldn't know a horse if it fell over you yet you feel qualified to tell me that I am a greedy, drug happy trainer? All because I have enough balls to try to tell you the truth? Despite the presumed importance of some anonymous people on the internet , your opinion really doesn't mean much to me because you have proven in just a few posts to be a simpleton.

Let's forget about Kelso for a moment, and focus on the nonsense posted above.

Why is it that "horsemen" automatically assume that "horse players" have absolutely no clue when it comes to horsemanship? How the heck would you know whether any of us own horses or have been around horses for a substantial part of our lives?

And why would you automatically assume this? Is it because you think anyone who wagers on horses is destitute by default, and couldn't possibly scape up enough money to own and care for an actual living, breathing horse?

I get so tired of the horsemen on here (and there are only a handful of you who do this, thank goodness) who use this as a put down during a debate. Plenty of us own horses, both for racing and for pleasure, and a great number of us have been around horses for many years.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Cannon shell

It is widely used because we know that it is effective in preventing horses from bleeding. Why is this so hard to understand? Why must we let the horse bleed if it is preventable?

It used to be a horse had to actually bleed before they were allowed to run on Lasix. These days, in places like Kentucky, a trainer can simply enter his horse on Lasix without ever being looked at by a vet.

In fact, at places like Churchill these days, they pretty much DISCOURAGE a horse being certified a bleeder (via a vet) by penalizing them in terms of preference dates. That's why the CERTIFIED bleeder list in Kentucky SWELLS exponentially right before Saratoga is set to open...because in order to run on Lasix in NY, you need to be certified by a vet as a bleeder, and Kentucky trainers don't want to lose their Churchill preference dates, so they wait until the last moment to certify before they ship to NY.

NY has gotten easier to certify as well. The horse doesn't even actually have to be scoped...the vet just basically signs off that the horse looks like a bleeder...

Maybe Cannon Shell can explain to us why the requirements to run on Lasix have become so relaxed in recent years...

A side component of this whole debate which nobody has mentioned is the pharmaceutical industry. Is Lasix along with all the other race day medications a big enough revenue source for them that they will lobby hard against this bill.

If so, that could be a game changer. They have one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington D.C.

[Cannon shell]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Let's forget about Kelso for a moment, and focus on the nonsense posted above.

Why is it that "horsemen" automatically assume that "horse players" have absolutely no clue when it comes to horsemanship? How the heck would you know whether any of us own horses or have been around horses for a substantial part of our lives?

And why would you automatically assume this? Is it because you think anyone who wagers on horses is destitute by default, and couldn't possibly scape up enough money to own and care for an actual living, breathing horse?

I get so tired of the horsemen on here (and there are only a handful of you who do this, thank goodness) who use this as a put down during a debate. Plenty of us own horses, both for racing and for pleasure, and a great number of us have been around horses for many years.

Give me a break. It was obviously pointed at one person. The fact is that simply owning or being around horses is far different than training racehorses. While I don't have the luxury of knowing who the vast majority of people who post are or what their experience is, most posters probably have some idea of my experience. When a poster repeatedly make ridiculously inaccurate statements as well as personal attacks...well you get what you get.

I am not sure why you would write that garbage about me assuming anything negative about horse players. I have a lot more friends that are horseplayer's than are horseman. Again owning a horse, a living, breathing horse doesn't exactly make anyone an expert on this issue. They don't come with guidelines or playbooks.

It is amazing to me how sensitive you seem to be by making something said to an obnoxious, over the top poster into "you horseman think we are clueless, I think I will take offense".

I get tired of people who constantly whine about drugs and trainers without having a semblance of a clue as to what they are talking about. Let me just wrap this up by saying that the horseman/horseplayer hate really only goes one way. I have never heard a single horseman say that he hates horseplayers or a horseplayer or hopes they get locked up or wishes they would lose their livelihood or some other insane thing that gets written at here about trainers in about 50% of the threads. It is really just childish that we can't discuss an issue without the hate.

Sorry to make it so long. I've got to go down to the horse crack den we call stables and shoot 'em up now. See you later.

[lamboguy]

just curious, are you refering to me?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Cannon shell

Give me a break. It was obviously pointed at one person. The fact is that simply owning or being around horses is far different than training racehorses. While I don't have the luxury of knowing who the vast majority of people who post are or what their experience is, most posters probably have some idea of my experience. When a poster repeatedly make ridiculously inaccurate statements as well as personal attacks...well you get what you get.

I am not sure why you would write that garbage about me assuming anything negative about horse players. I have a lot more friends that are horseplayer's than are horseman. Again owning a horse, a living, breathing horse doesn't exactly make anyone an expert on this issue. They don't come with guidelines or playbooks.

It is amazing to me how sensitive you seem to be by making something said to an obnoxious, over the top poster into "you horseman think we are clueless, I think I will take offense".

I get tired of people who constantly whine about drugs and trainers without having a semblance of a clue as to what they are talking about. Let me just wrap this up by saying that the horseman/horseplayer hate really only goes one way. I have never heard a single horseman say that he hates horseplayers or a horseplayer or hopes they get locked up or wishes they would lose their livelihood or some other insane thing that gets written at here about trainers in about 50% of the threads. It is really just childish that we can't discuss an issue without the hate.

Sorry to make it so long. I've got to go down to the horse crack den we call stables and shoot 'em up now. See you later.

50% of the threads have people writing that they hate trainers, or hope they got locked up or wish they lose their livelihood? Really? That's an interesting statistic, and one you obviously pulled out of thin air.

Now, back to the subject at hand. You are not the first horseman to come on here and accuse someone of not knowing how to tell a colt from a filly. That's a far cry from "Again owning a horse, a living, breathing horse doesn't exactly make anyone an expert on this issue." Nobody ever said it did. I'm sensitive because I keep seeing it over and over again from "horsemen" on here. It's not quite at the mythical "50% of threads" level, but who knows, maybe I'm using the wrong math.

And like I said, forget about Kelso. He's gone and he won't be coming back.

Perhaps now we can stop slinging mud and start having a little more mutual respect for each other in this thread.

[andymays]

Race-day drug ban gaining ground

http://www.courier-journal.com/artic...t%7CSports%7Cp

Excerpt:

But industry leaders will meet next week under the threat of federal legislation introduced in early May to ban race-day medication and provide stiffer penalties for abuse. Perhaps more importantly, the bills would reopen debate on the law allowing interstate wagering on horse racing — an advantage the sport has over other forms of gambling that few in the industry want to risk.

[andymays]

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/...-of-salix.aspx

Excerpt:

Trainer Rick Hiles, a member of the Kentucky Equine Drug Research Council, recently related a story about an individual who asked why a European country had no positives for phenylbutazone, the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug called Bute. The drug can be administered no later than 24 hours before a race in the U.S. The reason for the lack of positives, Hiles was told, was that the jurisdiction didn’t test for the drug.

[Cannon shell]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

50% of the threads have people writing that they hate trainers, or hope they got locked up or wish they lose their livelihood? Really? That's an interesting statistic, and one you obviously pulled out of thin air.

Now, back to the subject at hand. You are not the first horseman to come on here and accuse someone of not knowing how to tell a colt from a filly. That's a far cry from "Again owning a horse, a living, breathing horse doesn't exactly make anyone an expert on this issue." Nobody ever said it did. I'm sensitive because I keep seeing it over and over again from "horsemen" on here. It's not quite at the mythical "50% of threads" level, but who knows, maybe I'm using the wrong math.

And like I said, forget about Kelso. He's gone and he won't be coming back.

Perhaps now we can stop slinging mud and start having a little more mutual respect for each other in this thread.

Well the shoe certainly seemed to fit for Kelso. Why you took offense to something aimed at Kelso who quite obviously doesn't have any hidden horsemanship knowledge, I dont know.

Regardless of your liking it or not the fact is that many horseplayers are basing their opinion on the topic on flawed information they read somewhere often written by someone else who did the same thing, not from personal experience.

As for as Kelso I would think that it was pretty apparent that his entire mission was to engage me in a hostile manner. Honesty I thought I was fairly restrained.

[Cannon shell]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It used to be a horse had to actually bleed before they were allowed to run on Lasix. These days, in places like Kentucky, a trainer can simply enter his horse on Lasix without ever being looked at by a vet.

In fact, at places like Churchill these days, they pretty much DISCOURAGE a horse being certified a bleeder (via a vet) by penalizing them in terms of preference dates. That's why the CERTIFIED bleeder list in Kentucky SWELLS exponentially right before Saratoga is set to open...because in order to run on Lasix in NY, you need to be certified by a vet as a bleeder, and Kentucky trainers don't want to lose their Churchill preference dates, so they wait until the last moment to certify before they ship to NY.

NY has gotten easier to certify as well. The horse doesn't even actually have to be scoped...the vet just basically signs off that the horse looks like a bleeder...

Maybe Cannon Shell can explain to us why the requirements to run on Lasix have become so relaxed in recent years...

A side component of this whole debate which nobody has mentioned is the pharmaceutical industry. Is Lasix along with all the other race day medications a big enough revenue source for them that they will lobby hard against this bill.

If so, that could be a game changer. They have one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington D.C.

The rules were relaxed because making horses bleed instead of preventing it seemed like a bad idea in hindsight.

I doubt that the drug companies sell nearly enough Lasix for it to be a factor.

[lamboguy]

in pensylvania they have outlawed the race day use of kentucky red. they will get rid of all the rest of the bull shit raceday drugs with good reason, and i think that will happen before the congress passes any bill in front of them.

this will put racing on a much firmer ground in pa. you will have people running to race there without the stuff and have an equal playing field. you will see that they will get full fields when this happens.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

this will put racing on a much firmer ground in pa. you will have people running to race there without the stuff and have an equal playing field. you will see that they will get full fields when this happens.

As usual, I completely disagree with everything you say. Do your horses run on Lasix?

[Cannon shell]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

in pensylvania they have outlawed the race day use of kentucky red. they will get rid of all the rest of the bull shit raceday drugs with good reason, and i think that will happen before the congress passes any bill in front of them.

this will put racing on a much firmer ground in pa. you will have people running to race there without the stuff and have an equal playing field. you will see that they will get full fields when this happens.

LOL! three words...Juan Carlos Guerrero...

Think KY red was his big secret?

[saratoga guy]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

this will put racing on a much firmer ground in pa. you will have people running to race there without the stuff and have an equal playing field. you will see that they will get full fields when this happens.

Why do you think a ban on race-day medication will prove to be such a panacea that it will somehow increase field size???

It's certainly not going to change the economy. It won't change the decrease in the foal population.

Are you hypothesizing that trainers and owners will flock to a "clean" jurisdiction? That's forgetting history. New York allowed Lasix because - as the last holdout - neighboring states were taking horses away.

And when NYRA took a pro-active anti-cheat stance with their detention barn - it certainly didn't have horsemen flocking there.

And pro-ban people keep pointing to Europe and Asia as the model -- and they seem to imply that racing is much healthier elsewhere. In fact, many of the global racing jurisdictions are fighting the same problems we are vis-a-vis declining popularity of the sport -- regardless of their drug policies.