2016-2017 NBA thread

[cj]

Originally Posted by lansdale

These are two of the greatest hoops players we'll ever have the privilege of watching -- so somewhat silly imho, but maybe inevitable that the perennial argument about who's the true alpha. I've posted a link of all their head to head games below -- one interesting perspective on this pair., because I believe we can assume that these two were checking each other most of the time in these games. I think this summary tells us what we already know -- these two players are very close in ability, although LBJ is often thought to be an order of magnitude better. Their reg. season scoring and rebounding is almost identical, and LBJ is a better passer. In the post season, KD is the better shooter and scorer, and LBJ's rebounding picks up over the reg. season, as we know.

Re KD in this series, he's outplaying LBJ, but not by much. Worth remembering that LBJ, at 32, is now a couple of years past his prime -- we can all see the decline in vertical lift, speed, and stamina. KD, at 28, is in his prime, at the peak of his career. Also, as cj pointed out, on such a stacked team, KD is much less pressured -- when before in his career did you ever seem get open looks, or passes for easy dunks in the lane -- never. For the same reason, he's also playing fewer minutes, and thus has greater reserves of energy throughout the game. OTOH, LBJ, is forced to expend huge amounts of energy, and he's clearly been gassed by the second half of both these games. Despite all, he's still playing at an amazingly high level.

So who is better? At this point, as pure player, KD is better -- he led the league in WS/48, the best overall indicator of the contribution a player makes to winning. But if you asked the question 'who do you want with the ball in his hands at crunch time' , that would have to be LBJ, whose hoops IQ is much higher. One of the best aspects of KD's move to GSW is that he rarely has to make any important decisions with the ball, (maybe the weakest part of his game) since Curry and DG do such a great job.

Wish this were a real series, but still great to be able to watch some spectacular play.





http://www.basketball-reference.com/...01&idx=players

I know for sure that most of the games in OKC Durant did not guard LeBron very often. That was left to Thabo Sefalosha and later Andre Roberson.

[ace4win]

That was intense game 3, Cavs almost beat GSW but Kevin Durant is unstoppable in creating points.

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by ace4win

That was intense game 3, Cavs almost beat GSW but Kevin Durant is unstoppable in creating points.

Agreed, they can argue all they want (about who is better)...............KD stuck a fork in them, they are done. He just beat the crap out of them 3 nights in a row, including one on the road coming from behind.

MVP!

[cj]

Originally Posted by burnsy

Agreed, they can argue all they want (about who is better)...............KD stuck a fork in them, they are done. He just beat the crap out of them 3 nights in a row, including one on the road coming from behind.

MVP!

KD is obviously a great player.

If you switch the two, the Cavs wouldn't be close in any game. That is my point, not trying to knock KD. I always despised LeBron simply because OKC couldn't beat him, but I've learned to appreciate how great he is. They win that game easily if anyone besides him or JR Smith could have made a 3.

[ElKabong]

Originally Posted by cj

I have less interest in this than the Finals of any other major sport in a long, long time.

same here, haven't watched one second of this year's Finals. Usually my wife and I are glued to the semis and finals. It's a poor product for the public to consume today, from an entertainment standpoint. Same teams, over and over. One team loses in the finals, they just go get the best player available. No other teams stand much of a chance in the end

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by cj

I know for sure that most of the games in OKC Durant did not guard LeBron very often. That was left to Thabo Sefalosha and later Andre Roberson.

Thanks for the heads-up on this -- also makes sense that they would try to spare KD the banging, given LBJ's serious advantage in upper-body strength. But I don't think it really affects my overall argument, that Durant is still underrated by a lot of fans, and especially those who only follow pro hoops during the post-season. And as far as the average stats of these two from these games, they're pretty Bayesian -- amazingingly predictive of their lifetime overall stats:

LBJ - 27.1/7.3/7

KD - 27.2/7.1/3.8

Again, another point re these two -- these scoring averages are way out on the end of the distribution tail -- they're #4 and #5 all time.


Re your idea that a player swap would demonstrate the superiority of LBJ -- of course, it would hurt Cavs more, since the whole team is built around him. Without him, they have negligible playmaking -- Kyrie is horrible on the point. Move Kyrie to the 2, put a competent 7-assist pg at the 1, then switch LBJ and KD, and no one would notice the difference.

One thing that also struck me in comparing these two that I haven't seen much in the press, is that Durant has spent his career playing against much tougher competition in the West, while, especially when in Miami, LBJ has often been going up against ridiculously soft teams. There must be some way to quantify this and make adjustments, as you would for class in horseracing.

As boring as this series has been, great to see a happy Durant at the end of the season -- he's put in a lot of years already.




http://www.basketball-reference.com/...duranke01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jamesle01.html

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by cj

KD is obviously a great player.

If you switch the two, the Cavs wouldn't be close in any game. That is my point, not trying to knock KD. I always despised LeBron simply because OKC couldn't beat him, but I've learned to appreciate how great he is. They win that game easily if anyone besides him or JR Smith could have made a 3.

That's not the point. They are on the teams they pretty much chose at this point. KD just has been better. All the talking heads talk about is how LeBron is on offense and his offensive stats. He defense has been lacking all year. Their entire team has blown leads all season long. They can't play defense to close out a game. Some of those guys including KD were making threes in his face, at the most crucial point in the game. If you can't defend the teams in the Eastern the Western is going to pick you to pieces and Golden State has done that every game. The Media "best player" in the world" BS gets old.

Flip side, the Warriors coach and players. They get out in front on defense and wear teams out. Yeah, LeBron and JR get theirs but it costs them all their energy by the end. They don't get back and they can't even get a hand up to even try at the end. Everyone wants to see the scoring side, in any sport that's the losers bet. Defense almost always wins out. All they kept asking KD about was his 3 at the end...........all he wanted to talk about were the stops they make at the end. That's a team player, a guy that's coached correctly and a better all around player. LeBron is a great player but sometimes you gotta admit when someone done jobbed you. And he was had.....big time.

[cj]

Originally Posted by burnsy

That's not the point. They are on the teams they pretty much chose at this point. KD just has been better. All the talking heads talk about is how LeBron is on offense and his offensive stats. He defense has been lacking all year. Their entire team has blown leads all season long. They can't play defense to close out a game. Some of those guys including KD were making threes in his face, at the most crucial point in the game. If you can't defend the teams in the Eastern the Western is going to pick you to pieces and Golden State has done that every game. The Media "best player" in the world" BS gets old.

Flip side, the Warriors coach and players. They get out in front on defense and wear teams out. Yeah, LeBron and JR get theirs but it costs them all their energy by the end. They don't get back and they can't even get a hand up to even try at the end. Everyone wants to see the scoring side, in any sport that's the losers bet. Defense almost always wins out. All they kept asking KD about was his 3 at the end...........all he wanted to talk about were the stops they make at the end. That's a team player, a guy that's coached correctly and a better all around player. LeBron is a great player but sometimes you gotta admit when someone done jobbed you. And he was had.....big time.

That is the point though. It is a team game. Just because KD is on a far superior team doesn't mean he is a superior player to LeBron, it just doesn't.

As far as stops at the end, what I saw was the Cavs bricking wide open 3s and the Warriors making them. That isn't a stop, it is a miss.

[cj]

The officiating last night was a travesty in many ways. No way those guys get another game in the Finals any time soon.

[cj]

One of the best in game dunks you'll ever see.

YouTube

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by cj

One of the best in game dunks you'll ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTLZmyjzPnY

Blowing that late lead in game 3 probably cost "us" the series.

[cj]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

Blowing that late lead in game 3 probably cost "us" the series.

Kyle Korver missing that wide open 3 killed them, most likely ices the game. I always say missing wide open corner 3s puts the D in a really tough spot defensively and it really played out there.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by cj

Kyle Korver missing that wide open 3 killed them, most likely ices the game. I always say missing wide open corner 3s puts the D in a really tough spot defensively and it really played out there.

I'm praying for a miracle.

[ace4win]

Who's watching right now?

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Sorry, but this series will be boring as well---->Warriors in 5

Like I said....