Jack Van Berg

[delayjf]

I remember Jack Van Berg from the 70s he used to rule DRC & Hazel Park & also Aksarben

I was a hot walker for a brief time for Van Berg at Ak-Sar-Ben. The last big hu-rah for Van Berg I can remember was back in the mid 90's at Delmar - he had 4 runners and 4 winners one day all paid double digits as I recall.

[pondman]

Originally Posted by toussaud

by juice we are saying that every trainer uses steriods. not bute. not lasix. juice=steroids.

Walk into the barns in S. California and you find enough people injecting smack-- yeah the mexican cartel supplied heroine. Plenty of medicine men around. Nothing new. The old timers used street drugs from tijuana.

Van Berg's one of the great ones. I'd put him up there with the Whittinghams and Lukas. I know Whittingham juiced his horses. I doubt if many trainers, if any, are completely free illegal drugs in their practices. That goes for all levels from SA to Mountaineer. I've seen them in both places.

I don't understand what drugs have to do with the trainers bio. He's a great trainer. Just doesn't have the horses.

[Robert Goren]

Sometimes when you get old, you get "religion". That may what has happened to Jack.

[Citation1947]

I have a friend who worked for both Jack and Todd Pletcher. Three years with Jack and a year with Todd. I was told Jack is ten times the horseman that Todd ever will be.
It would be interesting to see what guys like Todd, Asmussen, etc could do with cheap horses. Improving upon or getting the most out of these types of stock is what separates the REAL horsemen from these pretenders with a trainers license.

What they should do each year is have a trainers challenge to see which of these so-called top trainers are really all that. Give each one of them a barn of about ten bad horses and see who can perform the greatest miracles by improving upon them....ethically. Separate the men from the boys.

Of course you'd have many of these guys avoid this challenge like the plague, because then, they would have to rely on horsemanship skills instead of vet work.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by Citation1947

I have a friend who worked for both Jack and Todd Pletcher. Three years with Jack and a year with Todd. I was told Jack is ten times the horseman that Todd ever will be.
It would be interesting to see what guys like Todd, Asmussen, etc could do with cheap horses. Improving upon or getting the most out of these types of stock is what separates the REAL horsemen from these pretenders with a trainers license.

What they should do each year is have a trainers challenge to see which of these so-called top trainers are really all that. Give each one of them a barn of about ten bad horses and see who can perform the greatest miracles by improving upon them....ethically. Separate the men from the boys.

Of course you'd have many of these guys avoid this challenge like the plague, because then, they would have to rely on horsemanship skills instead of vet work.

Probably true re: Pletcher but MOST of the horses Asmussen has had have been cheap claimers. The guy has been training for over 20 years but he's only had horses like Curlin and Rachel Alexandra in recent years.

[toussaud]

Originally Posted by Valuist

Probably true re: Pletcher but MOST of the horses Asmussen has had have been cheap claimers. The guy has been training for over 20 years but he's only had horses like Curlin and Rachel Alexandra in recent years.

he basically had jess jackson. The vast majority of his horses are very cheap claimers at tracks like fair grounds, oaklawn, remington, lone star and the likes of those. He has a string up north and a string out west, but that might be 10% of his entire operation if that.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by toussaud

he basically had jess jackson. The vast majority of his horses are very cheap claimers at tracks like fair grounds, oaklawn, remington, lone star and the likes of those. He has a string up north and a string out west, but that might be 10% of his entire operation if that.

And he has had more than his fair share of trips to the stewards' office over the years too.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Citation1947

It would be interesting to see what guys like Todd, Asmussen, etc could do with cheap horses. Improving upon or getting the most out of these types of stock is what separates the REAL horsemen from these pretenders with a trainers license.

Wait a second. Hasn't Van Berg been perpetually stuck with cheap horses for the longest time now?

And his record is absolutely abysmal.

What was your point again?

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Citation1947

It would be interesting to see what guys like Todd, Asmussen, etc could do with cheap horses. Improving upon or getting the most out of these types of stock is what separates the REAL horsemen from these pretenders with a trainers license.

steve is one (and like all, they have their good and bad qualities), but he's one whos taken horses ( originally well meant horses where I saw flaws when they were initially raced) where i had found flaws in their running mechanics that normally pay off for me, steve has corrected them. These horses would be bottom level, and some of them came and run with for $20k purses without repeating the faults for a while... Although those types are never going to have a grand career.

something like that is a good thing to see. Obviously you don't want to think guys are "blocking" the flawed ones and getting them to something they "refused" to do correctly mechanically because of a pain issue....

to be honest I don't like putting a lot of the flawed horses on my vulture list if there is a super trainer, and Asmussen might not be a supertrainer but as i say above he's shown me a reversal of mechanics a couple times. Either he, blasi, the exercise rider(s)? have some sense... or the worse negative thoughts...

Pletcher on the other hand i can wait on with confidence when i see a flaw. But to be fair he plays into that hand by racing horses to the owners expectiations at times rather than the horses true class, faults and all.

the real HOT trainer's flawed horses, i'll keep on the vulture list, but i steer clear 95% of the time.

the super trainers can get the most out of the cheap horses. If they can be put into the race- some speed is always nice- the super trainers whisper to the horses between races, and these once cheap runners do not tire. Some seem to re-break in the stretch. However these super trainers for whatever reason find it hard to prove to the strange fickle fans that THEY are the REAL trainers separating those other PRETENDERS....

[Citation1947]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Wait a second. Hasn't Van Berg been perpetually stuck with cheap horses for the longest time now?

And his record is absolutely abysmal.

What was your point again?

The point is Van Berg has always been a hay, oats and water man. You do know what that is, right?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Citation1947

The point is Van Berg has always been a hay, oats and water man. You do know what that is, right?

And what exactly does that have to do with the type of stock a trainer has?

You made it a point to say "It would be interesting to see what guys like Todd, Asmussen, etc could do with cheap horses." Then it was pointed out to you that Asmussen has in fact worked with plenty of "cheap stock."

I reasoned that you made this point because somehow, working with cheap stock (like Van Berg has been relegated to these last many years) is some sort of badge of courage. Then, when I point out to you his abysmal record, you come back at me with basically a non sequitur.

But, since you are one who seems to be under the impression that I might not know what "hay, oats and water man" might mean, perhaps you can be kind enough to spell out exactly what you are trying to say to an idiot like me.

[turninforhome10]

I met Mr Van Berg in Iowa, got a chance to sit a while listening to him and my boss talk about Marion(Jacks dad) when they were hot in the 60's. It was very cool and Mr Van Berg is a very astute horseman by any standards. Mr Van Berg pulls no punches and speaks the truth and his look and demeanor are that of an Army drill Sargent and I am wondering if nowadays that puts people off. I call it Woody Hayes syndrome. Sometime during the 80's it seemed that the these old hardline guys fell out of favor with people as people want coddled rather than the hard truth. There is no taking anything away from guys like Hayes and Bobby Knight and Mr Van Berg, they are just from a different era and I feel that most people don't respond to the hardline way of doing things nowadays. I have a ton of respect for Mr Van Berg and hope he still might get the big again before his training days are over.