Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 02-12-2018, 05:56 PM   #16
dilanesp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,589
Rep Power: 13 dilanesp is a jewel in the roughdilanesp is a jewel in the roughdilanesp is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefast99 View Post
As with horse racing where no one plays every race other forms of gambling allow you to sit out a few hands or rolls of the dice.
What is allowed and how the human brain approaches gambling action are two different things.
dilanesp is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 06:02 PM   #17
Denny
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
Rep Power: 0 Denny will become famous soon enough
our side

AA,

What I mean by 'our side' is the horseplayers side. The bettors side.

Not the racetrack/bet takers side.

Thought that would obvious.

I'm NOT saying you and I are necessarily on the same side. I'm not really sure about that considering our past exchanges - here or elsewhere. We don't exactly have a great relationship.

[Something you seem to be taking out on Pricci. I don't work or represent him or HRI. Just give my opinion there a lot.]
Denny is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 06:05 PM   #18
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,154
Rep Power: 7 Andy Asaro is just really niceAndy Asaro is just really niceAndy Asaro is just really niceAndy Asaro is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
AA,

What I mean by 'our side' is the horseplayers side. The bettors side.
I am on the side of 10% takeout. What is your plan to make it happen? And more importantly what are you doing to make it happen?

Last edited by Andy Asaro; 02-12-2018 at 06:07 PM.
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 07:31 PM   #19
Denny
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
Rep Power: 0 Denny will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
I am on the side of 10% takeout. What is your plan to make it happen? And more importantly what are you doing to make it happen?
I do what I can. I write endlessly on the problems that exist in this "sport" of horse racing, making observations and providing remedies. Complaining a lot.

Little of what I say is taken seriously by the powers that be.

I have no power. If i was Frank S, there's plenty i would do.

I'd take the industry lead and just do it. Whatever is needed. The horsemen don't like me lowering takeout? Screw them, i'd drop it anyway. i'm a multi-billionaire and what do i care if some of them leave. The ones who stay would reap the rewards of a boom in business from horseplayers increased betting - like they've never seen before.

I wouldn't be so big on the class of the races either. It's already been shown by what's going on with handle at Gulfstream that people will bet if fields are big enough and the races competitive.
Sure we can have a big day once in a while, like Pegasus for the big shots.

Horseplayers would bet my track, not the tracks with high takeout.
It might take a few years, but, how many year's do I have left anyway (if i'm Frankie).

If I could, i'd do something for the horses. I'd stop the drugs. Again the heck with the horsemen. Run clean or don't run at all.

There's a start.

PS.
Did you know i suggested parlays and round-robbins a couple of years ago at HRI.
Or that I suggested NYRA put back in the second turf course - something I wrote about a couple of years ago.

Maybe somebody does read what i say, after all.

Last edited by Denny; 02-12-2018 at 07:40 PM. Reason: some spelling and an extra line
Denny is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 09:16 PM   #20
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,763
Rep Power: 10 AndyC has a spectacular aura aboutAndyC has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
......I'd take the industry lead and just do it. Whatever is needed. The horsemen don't like me lowering takeout? Screw them, i'd drop it anyway.....
Therein lies the problem. It doesn't matter what the track owners want to do, they are at the mercy of the horsemen and the state governments to give their blessings.
AndyC is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 11:26 PM   #21
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 57,323
Rep Power: 86 PaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
PA, you do the research. I came across it years ago. It started in France, thus the name. The originator/inventor pegged the takeout at 10% as being equitable for BOTH sides. Then one side got greedy as time went on.

Good research project for a Math major looking for a PhD. I'm too old.
________

AA, just because it's lower doesn't make it right. It's too high everywhere.
16% is a poor bargaining position to take.
Start with our side demanding 10% and work from there.
OK...the originator/inventor created his invention in the 1800s...

Something tells me the 10% number might not be applicable today. Just a hunch though...
PaceAdvantage is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 11:29 PM   #22
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 57,323
Rep Power: 86 PaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afleet View Post
is there a source that says 25% is ideal?
No clue...all I know is 10% is ideal because Denny said the guy who invented pari-mutuel wagering in 1867 supposedly came up with that number...
PaceAdvantage is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 11:37 PM   #23
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 57,323
Rep Power: 86 PaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
https://www.gamingtoday.com/article/...to_be_examined

Excerpt:

The continuing examination of the possible effects of national sports wagering, should it become legal in the U.S., continues March 13-17 in New Orleans at the Horsemen's Benevolent & Protective Association (HBPA) convention.

Sports betting and its possible ramifications on horse racing will come under scrutiny in a discussion panel featuring William Hill U.S. CEO Joe Asher.
===========================================

Only way it can benefit racing IMO is to only allow it at tracks, OTB's, and Casinos (Brick and Mortar) for first few years. The States that do that will help horse racing. The ones that don't will hurt horse racing.
Almost anyone who really wants to bet sports can bet sports in the USA right now. There have been bookies in neighborhoods since the beginning of time. If you really want to bet sports on the internet, you can...right now...even if you live in the USA.

Hell, not too long ago, I was able to fund an off-shore poker account with a US Bank credit card...and they offered sports betting too...and online casino games...the whole shebang. All this within the last year or so (I scratched the online poker itch, blew my $100 initial deposit, and haven't been back since). So even with all the restrictions in place, you can STILL get online action even using a VISA or MASTERCARD if you go to the right website.

Bottom line, sports betting is pretty much readily accessible to almost anyone who REALLY wants to bet on games. And racing obviously hasn't been impacted all that much, or they wouldn't be doing a study on the impact IF it becomes legalized in the US.

I don't see current horseplayers abandoning the game for sports...sure, they might bet sports IN ADDITION to racing...and by the way, betting sports isn't easier than betting horses...if it were, Vegas would be overrun with professional sports bettors and there would be no place to live there...EVERYONE would be betting sports for a living...

Obviously, that's not the case...

How many stories have I read over the years of professional poker players blowing their profits in the sports book...more than a few...

Last edited by PaceAdvantage; 02-12-2018 at 11:39 PM.
PaceAdvantage is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-12-2018, 11:44 PM   #24
horses4courses
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,749
Rep Power: 21 horses4courses is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Almost anyone who really wants to bet sports can bet sports in the USA right now. There have been bookies in neighborhoods since the beginning of time. If you really want to bet sports on the internet, you can...right now...even if you live in the USA.

Hell, not too long ago, I was able to fund an off-shore poker account with a US Bank credit card...and they offered sports betting too...and online casino games...the whole shebang. All this within the last year or so (I scratched the online poker itch, blew my $100 initial deposit, and haven't been back since). So even with all the restrictions in place, you can STILL get online action even using a VISA or MASTERCARD if you go to the right website.

Bottom line, sports betting is pretty much readily accessible to almost anyone who REALLY wants to bet on games. And racing obviously hasn't been impacted all that much, or they wouldn't be doing a study on the impact IF it becomes legalized in the US.

I don't see current horseplayers abandoning the game for sports...sure, they might bet sports IN ADDITION to racing...and by the way, betting sports isn't easier than betting horses...if it were, Vegas would be overrun with professional sports bettors and there would be no place to live there...EVERYONE would be betting sports for a living...

Obviously, that's not the case...

How many stories have I read over the years of professional poker players blowing their profits in the sports book...more than a few...
You're right.
Things won't change much.

The 50 and 60+ year old race bettors will just have to
make room for the 20 and 30-something sports players.
There will be bigger crowds at the tracks and parlors,
but not to bet on the races.

Been watching it since the late 1980s in Nevada.
They get along just fine with each other.

The game changer these days is betting with phone apps.
That's in it's infancy here - not the case in Europe.
__________________
Hello....I'm horses4courses,
and I approve this message.

Last edited by horses4courses; 02-12-2018 at 11:46 PM.
horses4courses is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-14-2018, 12:18 AM   #25
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 41,487
Rep Power: 64 cj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
Only way it can benefit racing IMO is to only allow it at tracks, OTB's, and Casinos (Brick and Mortar) for first few years. The States that do that will help horse racing. The ones that don't will hurt horse racing.
Don't see any way it helps the sport from a bettor's prospective. We've already seen what happens over and over again with slots. Until betting horses is priced reasonably, inviting a better priced gambling game onto your property is not going to help.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-14-2018, 10:21 AM   #26
onefast99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 5,812
Rep Power: 16 onefast99 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
Don't see any way it helps the sport from a bettor's prospective. We've already seen what happens over and over again with slots. Until betting horses is priced reasonably, inviting a better priced gambling game onto your property is not going to help.
I don't agree. Wouldn't adding another form of gaming to your current menu be an attractor? You will have people coming in for several hours at a time(current MLB games average 2 hours 54 minutes)if you have a bar a decent menu and yes live horse racing those people coming for sports wagering will spend a few bucks on the races. The object here per the numerous sports wagering studies done for NJ show there will be an increase in attendance at those venues that have SW. Right now MP will reap the benefits as they are the only ones set up to go once SCOTUS approves SW.
__________________
Monmouth Park...keep racing in NJ!
onefast99 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-14-2018, 10:45 AM   #27
Andy Asaro
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 2,154
Rep Power: 7 Andy Asaro is just really niceAndy Asaro is just really niceAndy Asaro is just really niceAndy Asaro is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
Don't see any way it helps the sport from a bettor's prospective. We've already seen what happens over and over again with slots. Until betting horses is priced reasonably, inviting a better priced gambling game onto your property is not going to help.
If it's brick and mortar only for a few years and the tracks OTB's provide a comfortable and fun place to hang out sports bettors will begin to see some huge payouts for small increments. That's the only shot Horse Racing has. If they don't do the brick and mortar thing they're gonna get hurt.
Andy Asaro is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-14-2018, 11:32 AM   #28
Denny
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 621
Rep Power: 0 Denny will become famous soon enough
10%

It's not important when it was invented PA.

10% is fair to both sides. Time hasn't changed that.

Greed by tracks, horsemen, and government have ruined everything.

Sports operate at 5% approx., horse racing is up to 25- 30% on some bets.
17% on WPS is about the standard now. Way too high!!! (Add breakage too).

Which is doing better? Sports or horseracing?

Start with 10% as the goal and work from there.

Only Poindexter at this site seems to get it. He's explained it quite well, in fact.

Most of you seem to be siding with the tracks, the status quo, and the game is going nowhere.
Denny is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-14-2018, 11:45 AM   #29
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 41,487
Rep Power: 64 cj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to beholdcj is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by onefast99 View Post
I don't agree. Wouldn't adding another form of gaming to your current menu be an attractor? You will have people coming in for several hours at a time(current MLB games average 2 hours 54 minutes)if you have a bar a decent menu and yes live horse racing those people coming for sports wagering will spend a few bucks on the races. The object here per the numerous sports wagering studies done for NJ show there will be an increase in attendance at those venues that have SW. Right now MP will reap the benefits as they are the only ones set up to go once SCOTUS approves SW.
We've already seen this with slots. Good luck.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 02-14-2018, 11:49 AM   #30
PaceAdvantage
PA Steward
 
PaceAdvantage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 57,323
Rep Power: 86 PaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud ofPaceAdvantage has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
It's not important when it was invented PA.

10% is fair to both sides. Time hasn't changed that.

Greed by tracks, horsemen, and government have ruined everything.

Sports operate at 5% approx., horse racing is up to 25- 30% on some bets.
17% on WPS is about the standard now. Way too high!!! (Add breakage too).

Which is doing better? Sports or horseracing?

Start with 10% as the goal and work from there.

Only Poindexter at this site seems to get it. He's explained it quite well, in fact.

Most of you seem to be siding with the tracks, the status quo, and the game is going nowhere.
Sports betting basically entails setting up a room with a counter, a couple of machines, a couple of people, some TVs, maybe a big board and someone to run the ship and post some lines.

Compare that with running a racetrack and then tell me again that you're sure 10% take will work for both industries just the same.

10% is probably NOT the optimal takeout for racing, where it will benefit the game as a whole. And you have zero evidence to say that it is.
PaceAdvantage is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
» Current Polls
Who wins the "Best Jockey Karaoke Performance." East or West?
Del Mar Jockeys and the West win - 34.38%
11 Votes
Saratoga Jockeys and the East win - 65.63%
21 Votes
Total Votes: 32
This poll is closed.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2018 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved -- Best Viewed in a modern browser @ 1280x720 Resolution Or Higher
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.