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Old 01-09-2018, 06:21 PM   #16
Fager Fan
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Trust but verify you say in your article.

So:

Why has Gulfstream Park has chosen the route it has chosen? Why isn’t it being made clear to horseplayers that these “about 7.5 furlong” races are really much closer to mile races, and often times even more than a mile? I don’t have the answers to these questions.

Yet here's the latest "about 7 1/2f" turf race from GP:

Race 6, 1/7/18: It lists a run up of 153 feet. That's 12 feet short from being dead smack between 7.5f and 8f.
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Old 01-09-2018, 06:37 PM   #17
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There is also a problem with how the DRF is showing wins and starts for 7.5f turf and 8f turf.

Look at 7th race Gulfstream Jan6 2018.

Pony Up, Nauti Boy, Party Boat

So they are considering 7.5f to be the same as 8f...?

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Old 01-09-2018, 07:22 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Fager Fan View Post
Trust but verify you say in your article.

So:

Why has Gulfstream Park has chosen the route it has chosen? Why isn’t it being made clear to horseplayers that these “about 7.5 furlong” races are really much closer to mile races, and often times even more than a mile? I don’t have the answers to these questions.

Yet here's the latest "about 7 1/2f" turf race from GP:

Race 6, 1/7/18: It lists a run up of 153 feet. That's 12 feet short from being dead smack between 7.5f and 8f.
I'm surprised you don't see the biggest problem here. I'll spell it out. Giving a time for an exact distance while reporting it as about is deceptive. No other race in North America is handled this way, even at Gulfstream.

The other part you are ignoring is that the listed run up can't be trusted. Even Equibase sees this. Gulfstream isn't being truthful. It is impossible to calculate the actual run up distance. But time of the run up can be done.
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:30 PM   #19
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Aside from the problem with the timing, it's also a problem from a more subjective analysis point of view. If I think a horse has distance limitations and I don't know how far he actually ran last time or how far he's going to be running today, I'm going to make more mistakes.

It doesn't make any sense for a track to be less accurate even if they have issues with certain distances. Just report the reality.

Where's the upside to inaccuracy?
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:03 PM   #20
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I'm surprised you don't see the biggest problem here. I'll spell it out. Giving a time for an exact distance while reporting it as about is deceptive. No other race in North America is handled this way, even at Gulfstream.

The other part you are ignoring is that the listed run up can't be trusted. Even Equibase sees this. Gulfstream isn't being truthful. It is impossible to calculate the actual run up distance. But time of the run up can be done.
You are ignoring that you stated something that wasn't true. I went and pulled up the very last race run at the "about 7.5f" distance being nearer to 1 mile when you add the run-up, and it's not.

Why can't the run-up distance be calculated?
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
I'm surprised you don't see the biggest problem here. I'll spell it out. Giving a time for an exact distance while reporting it as about is deceptive. No other race in North America is handled this way, even at Gulfstream.

The other part you are ignoring is that the listed run up can't be trusted. Even Equibase sees this. Gulfstream isn't being truthful. It is impossible to calculate the actual run up distance. But time of the run up can be done.
What would be the solutions for this mess considering the maintenance factors of trying to do what is best for the turf course in the long run...there are problems, yes, what do you want them to do about them specifcally...?
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
What would be the solutions for this mess considering the maintenance factors of trying to do what is best for the turf course in the long run...there are problems, yes, what do you want them to do about them specifcally...?
Most effective solution, stop wagering
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:07 PM   #23
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Most effective solution, stop wagering
The most effective solution is for Equibase, Trackus, and Gulfstream Park to get together and solve the issue.
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:22 PM   #24
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The most effective solution is for Equibase, Trackus, and Gulfstream Park to get together and solve the issue.
Have you considered that someone just might be benefiting from mis-timing races?

Christ my phone lets me know how many steps and distance travelled each day without me even asking for that data. Timing races just isn't that hard unless of course someone doesn't want you to have it.

Maybe Gulfstream should purchase a dozen phones
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Old 01-09-2018, 09:44 PM   #25
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Have you considered that someone just might be benefiting from mis-timing races?

Christ my phone lets me know how many steps and distance travelled each day without me even asking for that data. Timing races just isn't that hard unless of course someone doesn't want you to have it.

Maybe Gulfstream should purchase a dozen phones
yes I have considered it, I think that if there is something like this happening it will show when horses that have run poorly at GP on the turf, ship and win. As for your comment on your phone, it shows that there is a solution to the problem, and if it takes someone physically measuring the course each day, then they should do it.

And it should be "about" a dozen phones.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:03 PM   #26
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yes I have considered it, I think that if there is something like this happening it will show when horses that have run poorly at GP on the turf, ship and win. As for your comment on your phone, it shows that there is a solution to the problem, and if it takes someone physically measuring the course each day, then they should do it.

And it should be "about" a dozen phones.

You lost me

Mis-timing races and "it will show when horses that have run poorly at GP on the turf, ship and win" do NOT have a mutual relationship or connection in which one thing affects the other....
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:23 PM   #27
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You are ignoring that you stated something that wasn't true. I went and pulled up the very last race run at the "about 7.5f" distance being nearer to 1 mile when you add the run-up, and it's not.

Why can't the run-up distance be calculated?
What did I say that wasn't true?

The race you cite, which was run with an alleged run up of 153 feet, would come out to 7.73 furlongs. That is splitting hairs, but that is only if you believe the 153 is accurate. The run up took nearly five seconds. Even from the gate, that is much too slow for thoroughbreds on a firm turf course that is producing fast times. The listed run up distance simply isn't true.

You can't calculate run up distance because of the layout of the course, particularly when the rails are out, often WAY out. The course is not exactly seven furlongs as listed, it is longer. There are no poles. There is no way to visually check where the race starts from a timing perspective.

What you can do is back up from the finish line by the final time of the race. The rest, by default, is the run up...the untimed portion of the race. You can time it and make a pretty reasonable calculation of the distance. I would estimate the run up for this race was at least 30 yards longer than listed.

The problem is, and frankly I can't believe I have to explain this again, that they are trying to have their cake and eat it too. They have changed the distance to "about" so frankly they can list the run up at whatever the hell they want to list it. It would be an awful way to treat horseplayers but at least it would be truthful. But the timed distance of the race...the official distance...is not about at all. It is exact.

It is early in the meet, but there were times last year when the run up was taking 12 seconds to complete. It was obviously pushing A FULL FURLONG in length. Equibase called them on it and they were embarrassed I'm sure. They were providing run up distances of less than 300 feet and trying to tell us that could take 12 seconds. Equibase stopped listing the run up for the rest of the meet. What possible excuse could there be for running races that long and only giving you the time for 7.5f?

The biggest joke of the whole thing is that Gulfstream uses Trakus. They know the exact distance of the race. How they can have the nerve to call a distance about is beyond me. It is a lie, a bold faced lie.

Anyway, that is it from me on this. If you can't figure out the issue at this point, I can't help. You don't want to see it.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:25 PM   #28
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What would be the solutions for this mess considering the maintenance factors of trying to do what is best for the turf course in the long run...there are problems, yes, what do you want them to do about them specifcally...?
Gulfstream uses Trakus. They know exactly how long the race is. The solution is simple. Give us the time of the race for the nearest half furlong that is available, and give us an accurate distance for the rest of the race, i.e. run up. So easy a caveman could figure out.

Every other track and even Gulfstream for any distance but 7.5f give you this:

Official Distance
Time for that official distance
Run up distance, i.e. the rest

For this distance, Gulfstream is giving you this:

Official Distance (even "about" can be official)
Time for a DIFFERENT distance than the official distance (exactly 7.5f)
Inaccurate run up distance, i.e. the rest

Technically, if you use about, you can call the run up whatever you want. But then you have to time ALL of the rest and give it to us.

Last edited by cj; 01-10-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:50 PM   #29
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If horses running at gulf are given lower speed figures and ship to another track and suddenly earn a higher speed figures. Is it because they improved or because the speed figures earned at gulf were lower because of mis-timed races?
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Old 01-10-2018, 12:22 AM   #30
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Gulfstream uses Trakus. They know exactly how long the race is. The solution is simple. Give us the time of the race for the nearest half furlong that is available, and give us an accurate distance for the rest of the race, i.e. run up. So easy a caveman could figure out.

Every other track and even Gulfstream for any distance but 7.5f give you this:

Official Distance
Time for that official distance
Run up distance, i.e. the rest

For this distance, Gulfstream is giving you this:

Official Distance (even "about" can be official)
Time for a DIFFERENT distance than the official distance (exactly 7.5f)
Inaccurate run up distance, i.e. the rest

Technically, if you use about, you can call the run up whatever you want. But then you have to time ALL of the rest and give it to us.
...In addition, what I find interesting is that for the "about 7.5" the race heading lists a time of (1:28 and 4/5) and for the "7.5" the heading lists the time of (1:26 and 3/5).

1. " About 7.5" (1:28 and 4/5)
2. "7.5" (1:26 and 3/5).

So the "About 7.5" is longer, but from what I hear you are saying is that both distances at EXACTLY 7.5f verified thru Trakkus? I see what you are saying now...there is no reason why both cannot be timed from the 7.5 distance and make the time for both (1:26 and 3/5). But you are saying the About is excessively longer though claiming to be only 2.125 seconds longer

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