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Old 07-18-2013, 08:21 PM   #151
green80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railbird
I have a question that has not been answered ..ever

.How would one be able to tell if a jockey volunteered ( or chose ) to ride a specific horse in a race when he rode other horses in that same race . who makes that decision the trainer or jockey.? in other words was the mount his first call or what ,how could you tell .Thanks

hope I made this understandable.

Either the jockey or his agent made the call. More than likely the agent. The jockey is not always on what he thinks is the best horse, other factors come into play. If a small trainer with one horse and a big stable with fifty horses both want the same jock, who do you think he rides for?
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:09 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Clocker
A question out of curiosity as much as anything. I was just looking at a maiden claimer race that had two 4 y.o. maidens, one with 12 races lifetime. You see these types often in 3 and up maiden races. Why does an owner spend the money to keep a horse like that in training for 2 or even 3 years, especially once it is dropped from Mdn. Sp. Wts. to claiming and still shows nothing? Some kind of emotional attachment?

And how often does a 4 y.o. that breaks its maiden after a dozen or more races ever go on to win a race at the next level?
either the owner isn't very smart, has a ton of money to waste or is too emotionally attached to the horse. Or he's setting the horse up for a race and gonna sneak into the stall in the middle of the night and give it a cocktail
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:12 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Clocker
A question out of curiosity as much as anything. I was just looking at a maiden claimer race that had two 4 y.o. maidens, one with 12 races lifetime. You see these types often in 3 and up maiden races. Why does an owner spend the money to keep a horse like that in training for 2 or even 3 years, especially once it is dropped from Mdn. Sp. Wts. to claiming and still shows nothing? Some kind of emotional attachment?

And how often does a 4 y.o. that breaks its maiden after a dozen or more races ever go on to win a race at the next level?




1-He probably has more money than God


2-Its a pet to him,probably bred the horses and really doesn't care at all how much the costs are.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:01 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by lamboguy
i would say if you don't see a gate work from a layoff horse, you don't want to put your money on them.
There's opinion leaning the opposite way too,especially if a horse's last work is out of the gate;in a series of works leading up to a start for a returnee,or firster a lot of xxx B/H g usually isn't a good sign.
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:16 PM   #155
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Is there an unofficial class dividing line where generally a horse will be trained up to,and tightened for a top effort,intentionally toward an objective,vs. being raced into shape as many "cheap" claimers are,and then being entered regularly until a break is forced/required by the rigors of racing?
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:24 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Quesmark
There's opinion leaning the opposite way too,especially if a horse's last work is out of the gate;in a series of works leading up to a start for a returnee,or firster a lot of xxx B/H g usually isn't a good sign.
i agree with that, but the question is coming off a long layoff. Parx Racing makes you have a gate work if you are off 45 days or more. i don't know what the rules are in other places, but i think its a good policy because once the horse pops out they become more alert. its always dangerous when a horse is standing in the gate and you want to try to make it as easy as possible on them.

form a handicappers standpoint when you see horses break from the gate 3 straight times, you know that he is a problem child and the trainer is trying hard to take the fear or anxiety away from the horse.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:56 PM   #157
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Did you know there are currently 71 trainers in North America with a win percentage >= 25% (minimum 50 starts in 2013)?

One such trainer has maintained this percentage with 604 starts....amazing!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:40 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by PICSIX
Did you know there are currently 71 trainers in North America with a win percentage >= 25% (minimum 50 starts in 2013)?

One such trainer has maintained this percentage with 604 starts....amazing!!
can you post the list?
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:25 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by chadk66
can you post the list?
This link should be sorted by win percentage starting at 100%.
Just tried link after posting...you will have to select the win% tab at top to sort. I went through & counted the 71.
http://www.equibase.com/stats/View.c...d=9572#trainer
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:46 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PICSIX
Did you know there are currently 71 trainers in North America with a win percentage >= 25% (minimum 50 starts in 2013)?

One such trainer has maintained this percentage with 604 starts....amazing!!
There's a question waiting to be asked of a trainer there somewhere,like how's that possible?
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:21 AM   #161
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I will defend a couple trainers on this list

Like Mike Maker has so many wins on horses that are claimed for 40k and win for 8k.
Your percentage will be very high doing that.
So there are a few guys who fit into that category.

Guys like Charlton Baker dominate Finger Lakes a weak circuit but really take a beating at Aqueduct in the winter.

Dino Condilenos in Hastings spends a lot of money on horses and has lots of high quality horses. Higher value races are normally shorter fields and your percentage will be higher automatically just by running in shorter fields.

The two guys in the top ten I will defend are Rob Atras and Mike Chambers.

Atras is probably the hardest working guy on the ASD backside, second maybe to Jim Meyaard whos percentage speaks for itself as well. He runs a small barn and has really good help. Here at ASD people just run everytime theres a race in the book, but Atras actually points for specific spots and trains. Does all the required vet work, trains hard, takes good care of them and by doing that he has the best looking horses on the grounds. Not some magical powder that lets him fly past everybody. So in some cases I think people who just work harder, have horses that were fit when they came to ASD and aren't run into the ground can run over poor meets like this.

Chambers is a high percentage guy who trains the absolute shit out of his horses. They breeze every Tuesday because Wednesday is golf day at Turf Paradise. He gets horses from California that terribly outclass the horses in Phoenix and enters them really aggressively. The horses that he buys for 1500$ that were running for 10k in SoCal go in for 3500 in Phx and win and then they get sold. His barn is another one that's well kept, the horses are normally quite fit and he does the vet work. Something that a lot of people wont do. In the summer at Cby and Emerald his numbers decline because its harder to get horses out of California.

So theres the reasoning behind some of the high percentage guys
Everyone of them has a story and some advantage they have and who knows what who is using but the game is not nearly as corrupt as some of you make it out to be.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:18 AM   #162
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Great list these caught my eye.... not good not bad just found it interesting:

Craig MacPherson 25% Win 71% Top 3 from 99 starts.

Kevin Patterson 42% wins with 71% Top 3 from 92 starts.

Kirk Ziadie 41% Win 76% Top 3 from 119 starts.

James Hanson 39% Win 75% Top 3 from 107 starts.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:44 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maclr11
I will defend a couple trainers on this list

Like Mike Maker has so many wins on horses that are claimed for 40k and win for 8k.
Your percentage will be very high doing that.
So there are a few guys who fit into that category.

Guys like Charlton Baker dominate Finger Lakes a weak circuit but really take a beating at Aqueduct in the winter.

Dino Condilenos in Hastings spends a lot of money on horses and has lots of high quality horses. Higher value races are normally shorter fields and your percentage will be higher automatically just by running in shorter fields.

The two guys in the top ten I will defend are Rob Atras and Mike Chambers.

Atras is probably the hardest working guy on the ASD backside, second maybe to Jim Meyaard whos percentage speaks for itself as well. He runs a small barn and has really good help. Here at ASD people just run everytime theres a race in the book, but Atras actually points for specific spots and trains. Does all the required vet work, trains hard, takes good care of them and by doing that he has the best looking horses on the grounds. Not some magical powder that lets him fly past everybody. So in some cases I think people who just work harder, have horses that were fit when they came to ASD and aren't run into the ground can run over poor meets like this.

Chambers is a high percentage guy who trains the absolute shit out of his horses. They breeze every Tuesday because Wednesday is golf day at Turf Paradise. He gets horses from California that terribly outclass the horses in Phoenix and enters them really aggressively. The horses that he buys for 1500$ that were running for 10k in SoCal go in for 3500 in Phx and win and then they get sold. His barn is another one that's well kept, the horses are normally quite fit and he does the vet work. Something that a lot of people wont do. In the summer at Cby and Emerald his numbers decline because its harder to get horses out of California.

So theres the reasoning behind some of the high percentage guys
Everyone of them has a story and some advantage they have and who knows what who is using but the game is not nearly as corrupt as some of you make it out to be.
yea it's really hard to point to a high win percentage trainer and make anything out of it without knowing all the ins and outs of that trainers situation. Now if you could isolate that into trainers that have high win percentages with little to no influx of new horses on a constant basis you could draw some conclusions. But there is so many horses being shipped here and there for various reasons it gets pretty skewed. personally I think 25-30% is a very obtainable win percentage for a trainer who basically has the same horses over a decent time period. when you start getting over that percentage I think there are more variables at play such as horses being sent from better tracks to win easy races, the trainer not being able to get his horses into races that fit the horse and having to run the horse where it doesn't belong just to run it, etc. etc.
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Old 07-24-2013, 08:02 AM   #164
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the biggest question all the time is when a horse moves from one barn to the other and improves from the former. sometimes there are adjustments that can be made that turns the horse right around. horses might be hitting themselves and the new trainer can figure out the reason why he does that, i have seen that problem corrected a few times by working on the horses neck.

there are horses that are completely out of line and won't change leads. a good trainer can work on those horses and correct that problem which usually comes from the rear end even though the front shoulder muscles are usually sore.

as far as substances go, i don't believe there is anything that can be described as rocket juice, but there are things that help horses breath better and mask pain. the hottest thing right now is TB500. supposedly that is a natural substance that does the same to a horse as ritilin would do to a child. it supposedly makes the horses focus better. i have no idea how this or any other substance can be good for a horse in the long run, but i have been proven wrong so far.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:49 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Quesmark
There's a question waiting to be asked of a trainer there somewhere,like how's that possible?
Winning 1 out of 4? Depends on the situation. If I took my stable to Thistledowns I'd imagine I'd win 60%.
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