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Old 02-21-2013, 12:12 PM   #16
foodog8
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Regarding the simulcast on Indian reservations, there are still questions about the legality of it. There is some thought that simulcasting horse races off track (even on a reservation) would still need an ammendment to the state constitution to be allowed. It's crazy, now that lottery, charitable gambling etc are now allowed in Minnesota, but when pari-mutuel wagering was approved in Minnesota in 1982 it allowed only for "on-track" wagering on horse races.

Also, I'm not sure most tribes consider a race book in their casinos the best use of space. I'm guessing additional slot machines would be more profitable than a racebook at most casinos.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:18 PM   #17
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It definitely is no surprised RA has taken a chunk out of CBY's card room. It is much more convenient to get to then CBY if you live in St.Paul/Minneapolis.

RA has always been a card room with a racetrack attached to it. I can see why RA wants the terms to be changed. $150k off the top eats big time into their simulcast handle.

RA's simulcast handle was never going to be as big as Canterbury's if simply for the fact that their simulcast area is 1/8 of the size. I would never expect it to grow as big as Canterbury's purely because simulcast has been held at CBY for decades compared to the handful of years RA's has been open.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodog8
Regarding the simulcast on Indian reservations, there are still questions about the legality of it. There is some thought that simulcasting horse races off track (even on a reservation) would still need an ammendment to the state constitution to be allowed. It's crazy, now that lottery, charitable gambling etc are now allowed in Minnesota, but when pari-mutuel wagering was approved in Minnesota in 1982 it allowed only for "on-track" wagering on horse races.

Also, I'm not sure most tribes consider a race book in their casinos the best use of space. I'm guessing additional slot machines would be more profitable than a racebook at most casinos.
I agree completely with the racebook statement and could be a main reason as to why they may never put one in. Space is probably better used by more slots.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:58 PM   #19
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Last year, the simulcast handle per day on harness racing at both Cby and RA was 4K per day. Even if every penny bet at Cby on harness races moves to RA, their daily overall simulcast handle will drop from 24K to 8K.

Cby, as of now the only track to bet on T-bred or Q simulcasts, will most likely see an increase in simo handle.

Under the circumstances, Cby is actually being generous to only charge RA 150K per year. Remember, per state law, RA is only allowed to present T-bred simulcasts if they reach agreement w Cby.

If they are better off with 8K (more likely 5 or 6K) per day in simo handle than 24K per day w/ a yearly payment of of $150K to Cby, they are in far worse shape than I thought.

RA has zero leverage. No wonder they won't negotiate w Cby in good faith.
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Old 02-21-2013, 05:29 PM   #20
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Man Foodog, you have some unnatural hatred towards anything RA. Are you a Canterbury employee of some sort that was wronged? You seem fairly biased towards Canterbury, so just inquiring.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:21 PM   #21
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I have nothing against Running Aces. I want them to succeed, and they have everything they need to be successful: a successful card room, a solid 50+ day harness meet with purses of 50K per day (very generous considering what a small operation it is), etc. I understand it is a beautiful facility, with a great seafood buffet, etc.

What I don't understand is why they have declared war on Cby. Rather than take what they have and build on it, they want to destroy the Cby-SMSC deal and bring MN horse racing down with it.

No, I am not a disgruntled former RA employee , and I have never worked at Cby. I'm just an interested observer and passionate fan of thoroughbred racing in general and Cby in particular.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:14 PM   #22
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Dan Patch aside, harness racing has never been big in Minnesota. The first harness meets at Canterbury were a complete flop. Canterbury was built on the strength of projected revenues considerably larger than reality (by the same crew that made the same glowing "projections" for Big Money if a track was built in Birmingham).

Canterbury does not prosper because Minnesotans prefer wagering on thoroughbreds to wagering on harness races. It prospers because it is an alternative to Mall of America for family outings in the daytime. On most days the soccer moms and kids seem to outnumber the bettors. Running Aces has night races. Different scenario. Different crowd. The interesting figures are not the total handle, but the total handle divided by number of patrons.
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodog8
Regarding the simulcast on Indian reservations, there are still questions about the legality of it. There is some thought that simulcasting horse races off track (even on a reservation) would still need an ammendment to the state constitution to be allowed. It's crazy, now that lottery, charitable gambling etc are now allowed in Minnesota, but when pari-mutuel wagering was approved in Minnesota in 1982 it allowed only for "on-track" wagering on horse races.

Also, I'm not sure most tribes consider a race book in their casinos the best use of space. I'm guessing additional slot machines would be more profitable than a racebook at most casinos.
The issue is not best use of space. It is attracting profitable customers. Simulcasting at Mystic Lake--especially given the close proximity to the (relatively) affluent southern suburbs of Minneapolis--is likely to attract a larger portion of the bettors who would prefer the atmosphere of a casino to that of a Saturday outing at the mall. I have nothing against soccer moms and children. I just don't think they add much to the ambiance of casinos and race tracks.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:43 PM   #24
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I don't disagree at all. There are a lot of horseplayers who would go to Mystic if they set up a racebook there, especially since you can smoke there. It would be great for horse racing if/when that happens.

It hasn't happened yet because 1) there are concerns it may be unconstitutional, and 2) the tribes themselves (including the SMSC) are not sure it would be as profitable as other uses of the same space.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:18 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodog8
I have nothing against Running Aces. I want them to succeed, and they have everything they need to be successful: a successful card room, a solid 50+ day harness meet with purses of 50K per day (very generous considering what a small operation it is), etc. I understand it is a beautiful facility, with a great seafood buffet, etc.

What I don't understand is why they have declared war on Cby. Rather than take what they have and build on it, they want to destroy the Cby-SMSC deal and bring MN horse racing down with it.

No, I am not a disgruntled former RA employee , and I have never worked at Cby. I'm just an interested observer and passionate fan of thoroughbred racing in general and Cby in particular.
Whew! That's good to hear! Could use more passionate fans here in Minnesota!
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:25 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traynor
The issue is not best use of space. It is attracting profitable customers. Simulcasting at Mystic Lake--especially given the close proximity to the (relatively) affluent southern suburbs of Minneapolis--is likely to attract a larger portion of the bettors who would prefer the atmosphere of a casino to that of a Saturday outing at the mall. I have nothing against soccer moms and children. I just don't think they add much to the ambiance of casinos and race tracks.
Its not to say Running Aces doesn't have youngins there as well. On a given night, they are usually a few families running around and weekends and special event days, there could be more kids then parents it feels at times.

The type of player differs from both places. Specifically, when I was working there last meet, their tends to be alot of new people that seem to venture to Running Aces at least in the outdoor crowd area. Their tends to be a bit of a younger audience then compared to Canterbury, which I think is a good thing. Even though I would say the 35-55 range seems to be the stable for either local.
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