Opinions on best wagering site in the U.S.

[racenomics]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Not disputing your point Scott, but the article from 2015 that starts off with it is believed, is not going to drive many to choose one adw over another. It has baffled me for years that racetracks don’t give on track rebates to everyone. Would not help me any, but if folks are taking time out of their day to visit your track, you can at least give them 5 percent weekday and 3 percent weekend rebate(obviously just for that track). Might actually convince a few people to go to the track and bet at the track. I know novel concept. But i understand when the industry motto is to treat your customers as if they are degenerate gamblers or willing to pay any takeout for the “entertainment value” of the game it is sort of hard to come up with common sense marketing policies.

As it is, i heard one guy on the bet with the best podcasts say that he gets rebates and every time he goes to a track for the first time he offers to bet on track if they match his rebate, yet they always decline his offer. Go figure.

My honest reaction upon further reflection is the racing industry signed the contracts so live with them. Moreover why is the onus on the consumer to determine what adw is best for the host track. If NYRA bets gives more money to the host track than anybody else it should be front and center in their marketing. If contracts forbid such marketing whose fault is that?

I have been told very smart people run this industry. Sorry, I have seen zero evidence of that. The person choosing an adw needs to look out for themselves.
This industry doesn’t have a care in the world about them.

For what reason does all tracks not owned by the big 3 create an adw and black out their signal on every ADW except their own, OR if that is not cost effective tell NYRA give us an extra 2.5% of handle from NYRA bets and we will all make NYRA bets the exclusive owner of our signal. NYRA tracks do the same thing and make their signal NYRA bets exclusive too.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by racenomics

For what reason does all tracks not owned by the big 3 create an adw and black out their signal on every ADW except their own, OR if that is not cost effective tell NYRA give us an extra 2.5% of handle from NYRA bets and we will all make NYRA bets the exclusive owner of our signal. NYRA tracks do the same thing and make their signal NYRA bets exclusive too.

Not really following your point but imo I think every track needs to be on every platform. A lot of people will have just one adw and you don’t want them excluded from betting your track. The solution imo is for the industry to wake up, realize that their model is a failure and try to come up with an industry wide consensus that unless we don’t do things much better in the pricing area, we will ultimately all be out of business. But that is not going to happen.

[bisket]

I have TVG and Xpressbet because some years ago I couldn't bet all the major tracks from one site. I now only use Xpressbet because I can wager all of the tracks I like to bet. It's nice that they have Churchill replays since for some reason you can't access them from DRF Formulator. I use Xpressbet because they're owned by Magna who owns MD tracks. I try to spend my money to help my state's racing in any way I can.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by bisket

I have TVG and Xpressbet because some years ago I couldn't bet all the major tracks from one site. I now only use Xpressbet because I can wager all of the tracks I like to bet. It's nice that they have Churchill replays since for some reason you can't access them from DRF Formulator. I use Xpressbet because they're owned by Magna who owns MD tracks. I try to spend my money to help my state's racing in any way I can.

And how are your rebates?

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

My honest reaction upon further reflection is the racing industry signed the contracts so live with them. Moreover why is the onus on the consumer to determine what adw is best for the host track. If NYRA bets gives more money to the host track than anybody else it should be front and center in their marketing. If contracts forbid such marketing whose fault is that?

During the early pandemic shutdown (2020), you might remember that Fonner Park was just about the only action available and the betting volume skyrocketed.

The business model involving tracks without direct ADW access was covered in this article. Read the story as told by Chris Kotulak, Fonner's CEO and you might recall, former TVG face.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-need-a-rehaul

Imagine having a $2,000,000 handle where only $60,000 goes to purses and operations - three cents on the dollar. Fonner Park needed to negotiate with ADWs for an increase from 3% to 5% of the action for 12 racing days in order to complete their extended meeting.

The only survival hope for a smaller racetrack without an ADW is that one of the ADWs actually buys the track or you have some other strong source of income. The non-track connected ADWs such as TVG, DRF Bets, and the like will never invest in a racetrack - why would they want the costs when they are already on the gravy train? Another example of their parasitic business model and underlying attitude to the game.

Back on point of this thread, this is why NYRABets is best in my mind. NYRA seems to be the only leading player still in the game for the game's sake.

[bisket]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

And how are your rebates?

I don't wager enough for that to even figure into it. I just wager on races with large pools. For instance, today my only wager will be the Southwest.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

During the early pandemic shutdown (2020), you might remember that Fonner Park was just about the only action available and the betting volume skyrocketed.

The business model involving tracks without direct ADW access was covered in this article. Read the story as told by Chris Kotulak, Fonner's CEO and you might recall, former TVG face.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...-need-a-rehaul

Imagine having a $2,000,000 handle where only $60,000 goes to purses and operations - three cents on the dollar. Fonner Park needed to negotiate with ADWs for an increase from 3% to 5% of the action for 12 racing days in order to complete their extended meeting.

The only survival hope for a smaller racetrack without an ADW is that one of the ADWs actually buys the track or you have some other strong source of income. The non-track connected ADWs such as TVG, DRF Bets, and the like will never invest in a racetrack - why would they want the costs when they are already on the gravy train? Another example of their parasitic business model and underlying attitude to the game.

Back on point of this thread, this is why NYRABets is best in my mind. NYRA seems to be the only leading player still in the game for the game's sake.

Tvg/fanduel and I have never bet with them, gives the racing industry a lot of exposure. Of course the exposure is currently worthless because nobody stays in the game long enough to make a difference. If you have the sports package on your local cable and your flipping your channels there is horse racing somewhere being presented much of the day.

All that aside do you have any concrete evidence that if someone bets $100 at xyz downs at NYRA bets that more money will go to that track then if I bet the money at a Twinspires or Xpressbet or Amwager or Fanduel. I am not saying that this is or is not the case, but you need to show evidence.

Also if NYRA Bets is in this game for the games sake they would be offerring real rebates to small players. I don't know if they are doing so or not, but if they aren't you cannot say they are in this for the games sake. Because as long as Caw gets 15% rebates in some pools and joe fan gets a 1/2 % in players points rewards, joe fan is doomed. There is no way to get around that.

By the way just looked up the Nyra Bets rewards program(see below). This is a serious joke. How do you rationalize they are in the game for the games sake.



POINTS PROGRAM
Our points program earns you points for every dollar you bet, including an industry best 4 points per dollar on all NYRA tracks - no matter your level of play. No forms to fill out either, you are automatically enrolled in the program when you join NYRA Bets.

Redeem points for wagering dollars and past performances. There is no better place to bet on the action at Saratoga, Belmont or Aqueduct than NYRA Bets since you will earn 4 points for every dollar bet! Each dollar bet on all other tracks will return 2 points. The point structure is illustrated below.

NYRA Bets Points Structure
NYRA Tracks (Belmont, Aqueduct, Saratoga) $1 Bet = 4 Points Earned

All Non-NYRA Tracks $1 Bet = 2 Points Earned

Example: A player betting $1,000 on Belmont races and $500 on races run at non NYRA tracks will receive 5,000 points

$1,000 × 4 = 4,000 pts

$500 × 2 = 1,000 pts

1,000 + 4,000 = 5,000 TOTAL POINTS

[racenomics]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Tvg/fanduel and I have never bet with them, gives the racing industry a lot of exposure. Of course the exposure is currently worthless because nobody stays in the game long enough to make a difference. If you have the sports package on your local cable and your flipping your channels there is horse racing somewhere being presented much of the day.

All that aside do you have any concrete evidence that if someone bets $100 at xyz downs at NYRA bets that more money will go to that track then if I bet the money at a Twinspires or Xpressbet or Amwager or Fanduel. I am not saying that this is or is not the case, but you need to show evidence.

Also if NYRA Bets is in this game for the games sake they would be offerring real rebates to small players. I don't know if they are doing so or not, but if they aren't you cannot say they are in this for the games sake. Because as long as Caw gets 15% rebates in some pools and joe fan gets a 1/2 % in players points rewards, joe fan is doomed. There is no way to get around that.

By the way just looked up the Nyra Bets rewards program(see below). This is a serious joke. How do you rationalize they are in the game for the games sake.



POINTS PROGRAM
Our points program earns you points for every dollar you bet, including an industry best 4 points per dollar on all NYRA tracks - no matter your level of play. No forms to fill out either, you are automatically enrolled in the program when you join NYRA Bets.

Redeem points for wagering dollars and past performances. There is no better place to bet on the action at Saratoga, Belmont or Aqueduct than NYRA Bets since you will earn 4 points for every dollar bet! Each dollar bet on all other tracks will return 2 points. The point structure is illustrated below.

NYRA Bets Points Structure
NYRA Tracks (Belmont, Aqueduct, Saratoga) $1 Bet = 4 Points Earned

All Non-NYRA Tracks $1 Bet = 2 Points Earned

Example: A player betting $1,000 on Belmont races and $500 on races run at non NYRA tracks will receive 5,000 points

$1,000 × 4 = 4,000 pts

$500 × 2 = 1,000 pts

1,000 + 4,000 = 5,000 TOTAL POINTS

Profits from NYRA bets are going directly to NYRA purses

[titans1127]

I have accounts with all the major sites and the only reason I don't exclusively use NYRA Bets is because they do not allow NYS residents to bet on out of state harness tracks. It's probably due to some antiquated state rule meant to protect the tracks or something like that.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by racenomics

Profits from NYRA bets are going directly to NYRA purses

Don't they already have charity for that? But if somebody out there wants to support NYRA purses, then NYRA Bets is the place.

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

All that aside do you have any concrete evidence that if someone bets $100 at xyz downs at NYRA bets that more money will go to that track then if I bet the money at a Twinspires or Xpressbet or Amwager or Fanduel. I am not saying that this is or is not the case, but you need to show evidence.

The deals between each ADW and the host tracks are confidential however the articles presented show that each deal is between 3% and 6% going to the host track. Among those pennies per dollar, it is unlikely that any track will receive more than a 0.5%-1.0% difference between hosts. Hence, that is a minor point; these inverted host fee models permeate everything.

As you saw in Chris Kotulak's interview, the key for all of the ADWs seems to be equality, meaning from the article 5% for every ADW as the host fee was an important factor. Now, that 5% is peanuts and the entire compensation model is backwards, but there you have it.

To me, a national oversight board (if there was one) that sets a fee of 80% of the takeout rate percentage for hosting fees would help to consolidate the platform side instead of the racetrack side. Hence to carry NYRA, an ADW should pay 4/5ths of the takeout to NYRA - no negotiations from any track to any host. To carry, CDI and even Fonner Park, same rules.

The key issue is that if you want to play Track X, play with Track X's ADW. For me, NYRA attracts 90%+ of all my annual wagering action; hence, I play with NYRA Bets to allow my takeout to go where it helps the most.

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Also if NYRA Bets is in this game for the games sake they would be offerring real rebates to small players. I don't know if they are doing so or not, but if they aren't you cannot say they are in this for the games sake. Because as long as Caw gets 15% rebates in some pools and joe fan gets a 1/2 % in players points rewards, joe fan is doomed. There is no way to get around that.

Sure, higher rebates for smaller players is great, but you have now muddied the water with another "what-about-ism". If you do not like the NYRA Hit-and-Splits, the incentives, and rebates, go elsewhere. We started this entire discussion with the caveat that if your decision making process is to exclusively to find your own best deal, go for it.

Originally Posted by Poindexter

By the way just looked up the Nyra Bets rewards program(see below). This is a serious joke. How do you rationalize they are in the game for the games sake.

Again, the "game" has multiple facets. You want to pick apart the gambling portion? Sure, I agree, the rebate plan is seriously lacking. But to this point, we have been talking about overall handle translating into purse and operational funding.

To your ongoing point, do we want to argue about the points plans or instead focus on the real problem which is a lower takeout rate across the board?

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

Don't they already have charity for that? But if somebody out there wants to support NYRA purses, then NYRA Bets is the place.

If by "charity" you are referring to casino revenues, you need to go back and review that entire deal. NYRA did not strike the casino revenue deal "for free". (Snarky is fine, but it has to be at least informed.)

[ScottJ]

Originally Posted by titans1127

... the only reason I don't exclusively use NYRA Bets is because they do not allow NYS residents to bet on out of state harness tracks. It's probably due to some antiquated state rule meant to protect the tracks or something like that.

Exactly, this is New York State Law. As a state resident, it has always seemed odd that ADATR will cover the Meadowlands and Breeder's Crown events yet you cannot play that action via NYRA Bets if living in New York.

[Poindexter]

Scott, so you bet most of your money on NYRA, so you want to support NYRA.
I have no problem with that and anybody else who does the same, I appreciate the loyalty. Loyalty is an old school value that is largely gone from our modern society.

For the most part this game is tough on the non rebated bettor, they need to take advantage of every promotion that helps them. Whether it is free pp’s, hit and splits, winsurance, player points multipliers, sometimes they even offer rebates.it is sad that the game is such that you have to clip coupons to have a fighting chance, but that is the game of horse racing currently. So someone with 4 adw’s is gong to more opportunities presented to them then a person that is loyal to one. Since I don’t consider the racing industry loyal to its fan base, I certainly don’t find them worthy of reciprocation.

My last point is regarding the charity aspect ( or in your opinion the business arrangements that generously fill the pockets of horsemen and never reach the horse player). Imo a hand up is far more beneficial to society than a hand out. So if a responsible citizen reaches hard times and is fortunate enough to get financial support during the hard times, there responsibility is to use the financial support to get them through the rough patch and make themselves more productive, so they no longer need the financial support. Well the same applies to the racing industry imo. This industry is solely focused on the hand outs and doesn’t want to put on their big boy pants and try to make themselves relevant in this explosive new world of gambling. So imo they are no different than someone who milks the welfare system for an entire life. Eventually society will get tired of it and it will be game over.

[titans1127]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

Exactly, this is New York State Law. As a state resident, it has always seemed odd that ADATR will cover the Meadowlands and Breeder's Crown events yet you cannot play that action via NYRA Bets if living in New York.

Makes little sense considering the law isn't imposed on any other ADW. You would think it would be the opposite or something.