Religion II

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And by definition, whatever is temporal is related to time as opposed to eternity.

Just because this life is temporal does not make time real.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And by the way, since God is eternal and the universe isn't, by own admission now, this kinda puts the last nail into the coffin of your beloved pantheism. How can God be in All, and All be in God when All is going to end?

Have a nice evening.

OOH! I'm shaking in my handicapping boots. How old are you? Like 12?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Just because this life is temporal does not make time real.

You might wanna look up the definition of "temporal".

OOH! I'm shaking in my handicapping boots. How old are you? Like 12?

I'm thinking 12 is more likely your IQ measurement.

When a pantheist says God IS All and All IS God, he's making a statement about BEING. Look up the definition of "is". (Or are you going to pull a Clinton on us?). To say something "is" to so say at minimum that it has an objective existence.

And it's right here that you run into two stone walls in the form of laws of logic. God cannot be eternal and temporal. He cannot [b]exist[b] as an eternal and temporal being. This violates the Law of Identity, i.e. a thing cannot be A and non-A. Ditto if you turn the statement around to say, "All is God" (with "all" being the universe). The universe cannot be temporal and eternal.

And of course the other law of logic is the Law of Noncontradiction.

I hope your "handicapping" boots are of substantially higher quality than your cognitive abilities. At least you'd have your footwear to brag on.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

M-W has several definitions. Which one are you using?

The one that applies to the context of the discussion.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You might wanna look up the definition of "temporal".

You are confusing that time is eternal in God's kingdom and that time is eternally NON EXISTENT in this world. That they are both eternal is not the same.

Not only is time an illusion in this world but so is everything in it including you and I. When you die, it will be like you never existed.

You are not the same physically and mentally as you were in the past which does not exist nor how you will be in the future which does not exist.

Only your position in the totality of your life changes, not time.

Einstein also came to the conclusion that time is an illusion and found that the past present and future all exist simultaneously.

Originally Posted by boxcar

When a pantheist says God IS All and All IS God, he's making a statement about BEING. Look up the definition of "is". (Or are you going to pull a Clinton on us?). To say something "is" to so say at minimum that it has an objective existence.

Te Bible disagrees with you.

In Christ were created all things in heaven and on earth
everything visible and everything invisible.... Before anything was created, he existed, and he holds all things in unity. —Col. 1-15-17

...the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him.
—2 Chr. 2:6 KJV

to put it concisely, "He is all."
—Sir. 43.27

If these keep silence, the stones will cry out. —Lk. 19.40

Hey Box, how do you like that last pantheistic quote about stones from Jesus.

I got a lot more.

Originally Posted by boxcar

God cannot be eternal and temporal. He cannot [b]exist[b] as an eternal and temporal being. This violates the Law of Identity, i.e. a thing cannot be A and non-A.

So the "Law of Identity" has more power than God and puts God in his place?
What a joke! NOBODY and NOTHING tells GOD what to do least of all a "law" that he created.

Your statement is as foolish as the Pharisees who told Jesus that the "law" says not to work on the Sabbath. Sorry but nobody and no law dictates the Divine.

The only thing that tells God or Jesus what to do and what laws to follow is LOVE and that is because that is what GOD and Jesus are.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You are confusing that time is eternal in God's kingdom and that time is eternally NON EXISTENT in this world. That they are both eternal is not the same.

Not only is time an illusion in this world but so is everything in it including you and I. When you die, it will be like you never existed.

You are not the same physically and mentally as you were in the past which does not exist nor how you will be in the future which does not exist.

Only your position in the totality of your life changes, not time.

Einstein also came to the conclusion that time is an illusion and found that the past present and future all exist simultaneously.

Te Bible disagrees with you.

In Christ were created all things in heaven and on earth
everything visible and everything invisible.... Before anything was created, he existed, and he holds all things in unity. —Col. 1-15-17

...the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him.
—2 Chr. 2:6 KJV

to put it concisely, "He is all."
—Sir. 43.27

If these keep silence, the stones will cry out. —Lk. 19.40

Hey Box, how do you like that last pantheistic quote about stones from Jesus.

I got a lot more.

So the "Law of Identity" has more power than God and puts God in his place?
What a joke! NOBODY and NOTHING tells GOD what to do least of all a "law" that he created.

Your statement is as foolish as the Pharisees who told Jesus that the "law" says not to work on the Sabbath. Sorry but nobody and no law dictates the Divine.

The only thing that tells God or Jesus what to do and what laws to follow is LOVE and that is because that is what GOD and Jesus are.

You have nothing. All you know how to do is pull bible verses out of your ear and misrepresent what they say because you ignore context. And besides, why are you quoting the bible? The bible is full of lies and errors and misconceptions of very prejudiced men who had spiritual axes to grind.
Don't you recall your own very low view of the bible? Hypocritical much?

And Jesus didn't say that God was in the stones or that God IS the stones! So what is your point? Jesus rebuked the unbelieving Pharisees by telling them that all creation, even the inanimate, recognizes who He is, and they will cry out if his disciple, who knew who he was, don't praise him.

Don't you know that if God wanted, he could raise up from the stones children to Abraham (Mat 3:9)?

And what do you think Col 1:15-17 is teaching?

Col 1:15-18
15And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 [b]For by Him all things were created[b], both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
NASB

The passage is simply teaching the divinity of Christ, since he created all things and sustains the universe as we speak.

Since the universe was created, this means there was a TIME when it did not exist. And since you believe the universe will end, then this means a TIME is coming when it will cease to exist.

And 2 Chron 2:6 supports the doctrine of transcendency. If the universe cannot contain God, then God must be outside the universe -- apart from it. God must be bigger than the universe.

If Time is non-existent, you need to explain to us what the third option is. What is the alternative between Time and Timelessness?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The one that applies to the context of the discussion.

And which of these would that be?

Temporal adj

1. relating to measured time.
2. relating to the laity rather than the clergy in the Christian Church.
3. relating to life in the world rather than spiritual life.
4. lasting only for a short time.
5. relating to grammatical tenses or the expression of time in language.
6. relating to or located in the region of the temples of the head.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by Actor

And which of these would that be?

Temporal adj

1. relating to measured time.
2. relating to the laity rather than the clergy in the Christian Church.
3. relating to life in the world rather than spiritual life.
4. lasting only for a short time.
5. relating to grammatical tenses or the expression of time in language.
6. relating to or located in the region of the temples of the head.

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[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by Light

Einstein also came to the conclusion that time is an illusion and found that the past present and future all exist simultaneously.

Any chance I could get back to the year Arcangues won the Breeder's Cup?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

Einstein also came to the conclusion that time is an illusion and found that the past present and future all exist simultaneously.

What is your source for that? I've studied Einstein's theory and I don't think he ever came to any such conclusion.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

And which of these would that be?

Temporal adj

1. relating to measured time.
2. relating to the laity rather than the clergy in the Christian Church.
3. relating to life in the world rather than spiritual life.
4. lasting only for a short time.
5. relating to grammatical tenses or the expression of time in language.
6. relating to or located in the region of the temples of the head.

You'll figure it out. Once you concede that there is no alternative between Time and Timelessness, that might be the Time you come to your senses.

[Buckeye]

Space and Time were created in an instant according to the Scientists.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Buckeye

Space and Time were created in an instant according to the Scientists.

They forgot Matter. Without Matter, there can be no Time, since Time is successive Motion.

[Buckeye]

They claim it was created from dust.

In other words they don't know.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Buckeye

They claim it was created from dust.

In other words they don't know.

They need to read Genesis more carefully. Man was created from dust.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Once you concede that there is no alternative between Time and Timelessness, that might be the Time you come to your senses.

The question is which of us needs to come to our senses. In the several years since the Religion thread was started you have given no reason for one to reject science, as you have, and embrace superstition, as you do.

You were the one who brought up the definition of temporal.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Then since the universe isn't eternal, it can only be temporal, which is the antithesis to eternal. And by definition, whatever is temporal is related to time as opposed to eternity.

So explain how any of the definitions given in M-W lead to that conclusion.