Maybe PETA has a point ...

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I wish we could go back to the age when people didn't freak out so much when a horse broke down. I know that's cold to say...but...look where it's lead us...

Trainers rarely work their horses hard (there are still some who do, but it's now very much the exception)...and they certainly don't race their horses hard like they did back when I was getting into the game (30+ years now)...

Does this "babying" of racehorses (especially the superstars) lead to more fragile racehorses? Well it's certainly not leading to more stout racehorse, that's for sure.

It's also lead to smaller fields...fewer horses being raced because trainers now space them out in terms of weeks instead of days...

None of this has been beneficial to racing...and I dare say it hasn't been beneficial to the horses either.

Plus, when you face reality, the only way to prevent another racehorse from breaking down on the track is to eliminate racing in its entirety. That's another cold thing to say, but it's brutally honest.

So where does that leave us?

Nowhere good.

I think this is right. Of course PETA does have a point, and of course they take it too far as they always do.

But fundamentally, (1) there are going to be breakdowns (indeed, even if we didn't have thoroughbred racing at all, horses break down on trails and such), (2) we have to try and make tracks safe as possible, but (3) we also want horses to be as sturdy as possible, and honestly, being completely freaked out about breakdowns probably leads to the babying of racehorses, light racing, and a more fragile breed.

I don't know where that leads us, and it is a depressing topic.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I think peoples' disgust with horse racing originated when it was revealed that the vast majority of the racehorses end up in slaughterhouses once their racing careers are over. This is a horrifying thing to discover...and it horrifies even a grizzled gambling veteran like me.

I agree with this. Those stories were absolutely devastating to the business. Obviously breakdowns happen in front of everyone and on TV and are awful, but the basic question of "what do you do about the fact that horses race for 3 years and live for 23 years?" has not been answered by our sport, and the slaughter of racehorses (including champions in some instances) just does enormous amounts of harm to the sport's image.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by ScottJ

The composition of the Hong Kong horse population is radically different as you are well aware. If you want to make the argument about horses of a specific racing age, that would be a worthwhile discussion. However, be prepared to discard the US's 3yo Derby Culture in the process and welcome back handicap racing.

And Great Britain and to a lesser extent Japan?

From the article:

Still, the U.S. rate for the past five years also is 85% higher than the 0.91 per 1,000 starts rate reported by Great Britain in flat races; and 49% higher than the 1.12 rate for those years in Japan.

When racing surface is taken into account, the U.S. still lags although its turf racing numbers are closer to Japan. Again, looking at the years 2014-2018, but this time looking at only flat racing turf starts, the U.S. equine fatality rate is 1.31 per 1,000 starts; compared with 0.76 per 1,000 starts in Britain and 1.12 in Japan. The equine fatality rate on turf is 42% lower in Britain than the U.S. and 14% lower in Japan than the U.S.

Imo, the difference in their stats vs. ours raises some questions, no?

Why?

What are they doing different than us?

I agree with you this would be a worthwhile discussion.

I also think any serious effort at lowering our fatality stats to match theirs would turn the industry on its ear for a few years.


-jp
.

[cj]

Originally Posted by bisket

The primary reason California went to all weather was Santa Anita’s winter meet. The weather in California has big swings in dry and significant amounts of rain. When they had a particularly wet winter season they had lots of breakdowns. This was also Santa Anita’s biggest meet and attracted interest from the casual fan just like Saratoga. Plus you have a national tv audience. This is a good gig for racing and what we do right now will either hurt or help racing. When it was dry Santa Anita would get hard as a rock. I believe they’ve changed some things and altered the base so it doesn’t get hard like it used too, but I don’t think anything can be done when there’s a lot of rain. I think it’s rained so much that the dirt track at Saratoga has become a problem and there’s no alternative. I think if you have enough real estate to install a tapeta surface you can still race when there’s lots of rain. This is what Gulfstream did… a tapeta surface also gives an alternative for works in the mornings as well. .

If there is a significant difference between fast and other than fast surfaces, why not keep dirt and just cancel on days where the track is off. With so few horses these days to fill cards, it would probably help quite a bit.

Yes, there are logistical issues but many other outdoor sports cancel when the weather is bad. And those other sports have a lot more money involved and fans to worry about.

[Al Gobbi]

Originally Posted by elhelmete

Oh absolutely true.

The decline since 2009 is significant and hopeful. But the baseline being 2009 is far from ideal.

How much of the decline from 2009 to 2022/2023 factors in race dates declining every year?

[cj]

Originally Posted by Al Gobbi

How much of the decline from 2009 to 2022/2023 factors in race dates declining every year?

It is a percentage of starts so that shouldn't matter.

[Al Gobbi]

bad breakdown in the 8th at Finger Lakes... feels like its happening pretty much every day now

[Sheffwed]

Originally Posted by Al Gobbi

bad breakdown in the 8th at Finger Lakes... feels like its happening pretty much every day now

it is happening every day

[ubercapper]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

And Great Britain and to a lesser extent Japan?


What are they doing different than us?

What they are doing differently is having all the horse's data available to the regulatory veterinarians to help determine whether there is a high likelihood a horse will be injured and to scratch that horse.


Specifically, Dr. Parkin (earlier this year in a Friday interview on Paulick report) specifically stated what is unique about Hong Kong is that all medical, training, racing and other records about a horse are in a centralized database which then, through the use of analytics similar to the Equine Injury Database, gives the regulatory veterinarians enough information to scratch horses which may be injured. I believe he cited about 70% of the horses which would be injured are identified and scratched.



One problem with this in the U.S., as already observed through the HISA requlation which requires medical records go to a new owner after a claim, there are a number of veterinarians who are not making those records available.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by Al Gobbi

How much of the decline from 2009 to 2022/2023 factors in race dates declining every year?

None. It's per start

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by cj

If there is a significant difference between fast and other than fast surfaces, why not keep dirt and just cancel on days where the track is off. With so few horses these days to fill cards, it would probably help quite a bit.

Yes, there are logistical issues but many other outdoor sports cancel when the weather is bad. And those other sports have a lot more money involved and fans to worry about.

I think the tracks are just afraid that cancellations will lead to the everyday players looking more closely at competing tracks and maybe liking the product there more. They want to keep the whales (and everyone) focused on their product. It appears things are slowly moving in the direction of what you are suggesting (weather cancellations) though.

[azeri98]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

And Great Britain and to a lesser extent Japan?

From the article:




Imo, the difference in their stats vs. ours raises some questions, no?

Why?

What are they doing different than us?

I agree with you this would be a worthwhile discussion.

I also think any serious effort at lowering our fatality stats to match theirs would turn the industry on its ear for a few years.


-jp
.

Their horses are on a lot less drugs if any than ours are. It's proven that drugs make the horse more vulnerable to injuries especially steroids which weakens bones and makes them brittle,

[azeri98]

All sports have changed. They practice a lot less and with less physical practices and rules to make players safer.

[bisket]

Originally Posted by cj

If there is a significant difference between fast and other than fast surfaces, why not keep dirt and just cancel on days where the track is off. With so few horses these days to fill cards, it would probably help quite a bit.

Yes, there are logistical issues but many other outdoor sports cancel when the weather is bad. And those other sports have a lot more money involved and fans to worry about.

As a fan and bettor I’m fine with this. This would also fill races because I’m sure the trainer will be looking for a spot to race in the near future. It’s been so long, but I think the large amount of rain damaged the base and breakdowns increased on a fast track as well. That hasn’t happened at Saratoga and hopefully it won’t.

[Hoops McCann]

Originally Posted by Al Gobbi

bad breakdown in the 8th at Finger Lakes... feels like its happening pretty much every day now

between all the races and workouts it probably is. i really don't know for sure but it's unlikely that a week goes by without a fatal breakdown in America. who knows what it would be if you included worldwide racing. as a fan of the sport i know this is happening but since i don't often see it, it's easier to forget that it is happening. but this breakdown of Maple Leaf Mel was just horriific on so many levels. a budding superstar with a little known trainer who is a cancer survivor, famous owner, national broadcast, happens right before the wire, she was no doubt going to win, a grade one at the premier meet in the country. it was just brutal. i've been a fan of horseracing for 50 years but i tell ya this is one of the moments that has me questioning - why the heck am i watching this? because it's not like this is a one off. i mean gee whiz, there's a good chance another fatal breakdown happened today. almost for sure another will happen this week. anyway, i know this sounds knee jerk and it probably is. but this incident really rocked me.