2019 Cigar Mile Handicap

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

The Pegasus should be highly anticipated.

Looks like he is considering the Pegasus.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...asus-world-cup

I'm a little surprised at that.

[groupie doll]

Originally Posted by Redboard

Looks like he is considering the Pegasus.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...asus-world-cup

I'm a little surprised at that.

Really? It seems a race almost tailor made for a horse like MS. He's got almost 2 months to prepare, and he seems the type that needs spacing between races and it's at a distance and track that he is proven at.



Reading that article and some others it seems the track at AQ on Saturday was very tiring... not surprising the figure came back robust (if not other-worldy) given MS ran hard the entire way around. The opening quarter was very fast for that surface.

[the little guy]

What the track was, was very unfriendly to closers, especially those inside and behind the kickback ( the runner up in the Remsen was always kept wide and out of the kickback ). The track was very kind to horses with Maximum Security's running style. I'm not knocking him, but any suggestion that he ran better than it appears because the track was "tiring" would be incorrect.

[cj]

Originally Posted by the little guy

What the track was, was very unfriendly to closers, especially those inside and behind the kickback ( the runner up in the Remsen was always kept wide and out of the kickback ). The track was very kind to horses with Maximum Security's running style. I'm not knocking him, but any suggestion that he ran better than it appears because the track was "tiring" would be incorrect.

This kickback seems to be a new thing at Aqueduct this year. Possible I'm just forgetting, but I don't remember it being nearly as severe as it has some of the days this year.

[FenceBored]

Originally Posted by cj

This kickback seems to be a new thing at Aqueduct this year. Possible I'm just forgetting, but I don't remember it being nearly as severe as it has some of the days this year.

Waiting for the Timeform US Pacecast to hear how you thought the track was playing Saturday. Raw times for the stakes seem much slower than average. A 1:54 Remsen on a fast track?

[cj]

Originally Posted by FenceBored

Waiting for the Timeform US Pacecast to hear how you thought the track was playing Saturday. Raw times for the stakes seem much slower than average. A 1:54 Remsen on a fast track?

It has been pretty slow all meet and Saturday was no different. Probably has something to do with the kickback too but I'm no expert in that area.

[groupie doll]

Originally Posted by the little guy

What the track was, was very unfriendly to closers, especially those inside and behind the kickback ( the runner up in the Remsen was always kept wide and out of the kickback ). The track was very kind to horses with Maximum Security's running style. I'm not knocking him, but any suggestion that he ran better than it appears because the track was "tiring" would be incorrect.

Good to know. Thanks for the correction; I was going by the trainers of several horses that were quoted in articles stating the track was tiring, or so they felt. Good to hear otherwise... mainly because it would have been difficult to tell.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Redboard

Looks like he is considering the Pegasus.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-rac...asus-world-cup

I'm a little surprised at that.

I'm surprised too as I thought it was always on their calendar.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by cj

This kickback seems to be a new thing at Aqueduct this year. Possible I'm just forgetting, but I don't remember it being nearly as severe as it has some of the days this year.

Yes. Other than days where there was moisture in the track, it seems that the times have been slow and closers have struggled. Clearly there is some relationship. This is not a situation I can remember seeing in the past.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by the little guy

What the track was, was very unfriendly to closers, especially those inside and behind the kickback ( the runner up in the Remsen was always kept wide and out of the kickback ). The track was very kind to horses with Maximum Security's running style. I'm not knocking him, but any suggestion that he ran better than it appears because the track was "tiring" would be incorrect.

I will defer to this opinion. It was visually impressive, but maybe it was bias-aided.

I still like that he put away Spun to Run.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by the little guy

What the track was, was very unfriendly to closers, especially those inside and behind the kickback ( the runner up in the Remsen was always kept wide and out of the kickback ). The track was very kind to horses with Maximum Security's running style. I'm not knocking him, but any suggestion that he ran better than it appears because the track was "tiring" would be incorrect.

That's what I was suggesting more so about Spun to Run than Maximum Security. Most of the other front running winners were actually tried at the end of their races even though they won. They just held on because the closers were also tired and could not rally like they would on a normal track. MS actually at least ran hard and well start to finish.

I usually hate the Spun to Run trip chasing the superior speed horse. You often blow 2nd money after the winner puts you away like MS repulsed him twice. But on that track, the horses that might have taken advantage were also tired even though they did not get used up front. So he hung on even though he was tired.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Yes. Other than days where there was moisture in the track, it seems that the times have been slow and closers have struggled. Clearly there is some relationship. This is not a situation I can remember seeing in the past.

I've seen it happen.

It sort of happened on one of the Travers cards in the last couple of years and it's exactly as you describe. There is moisture in the track even though it's rated as fast. The horses in the back get full of kickback (like on a sloppy track) and the track becomes speed favoring "even though the track itself is sometimes slow and tiring". It seems as though the closers are also getting tired despite not being used hard early and they are full of dirt so they can't sustain any kind of run to catch front runners that are actually tiring in some cases also. It's different than a typical speed favoring track where front runners are outrunning their stamina, finishing strongly, and putting up fast times and numbers.

It happens at CD sometimes on sloppy tracks and can be very confusing to me.

A handful of horses will close really well but loads will not lift a hoof. I guess unless you watch how they come back or know who was getting impacted badly from the kickback and handling the track better/worse, it's hard to know how to deal with each horse. I just usually note that the track was fluky in that way so when the ones that ran poorly come back, I can at least consider tossing the race.

[cj]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I've seen it happen.

It sort of happened on one of the Travers cards in the last couple of years and it's exactly as you describe. There is moisture in the track even though it's rated as fast. The horses in the back get full of kickback (like on a sloppy track) and the track becomes speed favoring "even though the track itself is sometimes slow and tiring". It seems as though the closers are also getting tired despite not being used hard early and they are full of dirt so they can't sustain any kind of run to catch front runners that are actually tiring in some cases also. It's different than a typical speed favoring track where front runners are outrunning their stamina, finishing strongly, and putting up fast times and numbers.

It happens at CD sometimes on sloppy tracks and can be very confusing to me.

A handful of horses will close really well but loads will not lift a hoof. I guess unless you watch how they come back or know who was getting impacted badly from the kickback and handling the track better/worse, it's hard to know how to deal with each horse. I just usually note that the track was fluky in that way so when the ones that ran poorly come back, I can at least consider tossing the race.

I think you misread, Andy said it hasn't happened when the track has moisture and does when it is dry. The track is playing similarly to what we saw on BC Friday this year, slow and lots of kickback that is pretty unfair to off the pace types.

[jay68802]

Originally Posted by the little guy

What the track was, was very unfriendly to closers, especially those inside and behind the kickback ( the runner up in the Remsen was always kept wide and out of the kickback ). The track was very kind to horses with Maximum Security's running style. I'm not knocking him, but any suggestion that he ran better than it appears because the track was "tiring" would be incorrect.

Feel the same way about your description of the track. Noticed it early on and was praying for it to continue. And have to say that I think Saez also noticed this, and in the Remsen gave me a ride on Shotski that I thank him for. And people might want to watch for the second place runner in that race to come back cause I thought he ran against the bias very well.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by jay68802

Feel the same way about your description of the track. Noticed it early on and was praying for it to continue. And have to say that I think Saez also noticed this, and in the Remsen gave me a ride on Shotski that I thank him for. And people might want to watch for the second place runner in that race to come back cause I thought he ran against the bias very well.

As I said in the post that you quoted, the runner up in the Remsen was kept wide and out of the kick back.