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Poll: Will Monmouth Park still be racing in 2025?
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Will Monmouth Park still be racing in 2025?

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Old 05-31-2017, 09:48 PM   #46
SuperPickle
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Originally Posted by onefast99 View Post
You link a 16 month old story on American Dream who is the new suitor for the Xanadu project that has been going on since 2002 in the state of NJ and to this day has been an eye sore to millions. American Dream is building an amusement park with 4 roller coasters, theme based rides and a Kosher food court and several high end department stores such as Saks Fifth Avenue which has been closing brick and mortar over the past 5 years. American Dream is scheduled to open in the spring of 2019. They have as of today issued another $800 million in bonds that the borough is not involved in the issuance of the non-recourse, unrated bonds which means that East Rutherford, or the state of NJ or the NJSEA are not liable in case of default.
If you think that the NJSEA will pay him $130m for what many believe will eventually be a Casino and hotel complex on his site and he takes it he will be leaving millions on the table, if not approaching a billion or so. He will also walk away from Winners in Bayonne which he put over $16m into, an OTW facility that is doing well. You said he was smart, he is and he isn't going anywhere as two casinos in Northern NJ wont be allowed to be within at least 20 miles of one another.Gural and Hard Rock are part of a group that will have the first right of refusal on a casino if the Northern NJ casinos are approved by the voters of NJ(Hard Rock just took over the Taj Mahal in AC), which may not be until 2020. Gural even came out and said he will wait the 6 years for NY to build out three casinos and then the NJ voters will realize how casinos in Northern NJ are indeed a great idea!
Take into consideration that NJ will have a new governor, as former Governor Codey said three weeks ago at the Monmouth Park opening luncheon "things will be better when Gov. Chris Christie is out of office".

What I'm saying is this because I've worked at both a racetrack and on casino astroturfing. The politicians are backing New Jersey residents into a corner to make them decide between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. Basically they have to choose between expanding gambling something they've rejected months ago by a clear margin. Or writing a check nearing $200 million to Jeff Gural. Neither is appealing. As with all these deals the public loses either way.

In terms of Gural of course he'll wait. The best case scenario is he owns a casino. The worst is he gets his money back. I've never been offered an investment opportunity like that. Have you?

But he's turning on Monmouth. Monmouth can't wait. They don't have six years. So if Monmouth magically went away he and his partners along with the state get their cut of the pie. You don't think he's going to Fredo them? You don't think he and his partners are thinking the longer they wait the better the chance Monmouth's problems resolve themselves?

And then there's Monmouth. This whole concept of a horsemen' group running a track? It's madness. The other tracks that are barely staying a float are run by real executives and owners. And Monmouth is run by horsemen. How much longer can that go on?

Honestly if TVG didn't see Monmouth as a chance to gain a foothold in the east coast and exchange wagering it could be dead already.
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Old 05-31-2017, 10:44 PM   #47
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It never even crosses my mind to play this track. I know people who raced there for a long time and they don't think highly of Kulina. They moved their whole breeding and racing operation to PA.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:13 AM   #48
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What I'm saying is this because I've worked at both a racetrack and on casino astroturfing. The politicians are backing New Jersey residents into a corner to make them decide between a turd sandwich and a giant douche. Basically they have to choose between expanding gambling something they've rejected months ago by a clear margin. Or writing a check nearing $200 million to Jeff Gural. Neither is appealing. As with all these deals the public loses either way.

In terms of Gural of course he'll wait. The best case scenario is he owns a casino. The worst is he gets his money back. I've never been offered an investment opportunity like that. Have you?

But he's turning on Monmouth. Monmouth can't wait. They don't have six years. So if Monmouth magically went away he and his partners along with the state get their cut of the pie. You don't think he's going to Fredo them? You don't think he and his partners are thinking the longer they wait the better the chance Monmouth's problems resolve themselves?

And then there's Monmouth. This whole concept of a horsemen' group running a track? It's madness. The other tracks that are barely staying a float are run by real executives and owners. And Monmouth is run by horsemen. How much longer can that go on?

Honestly if TVG didn't see Monmouth as a chance to gain a foothold in the east coast and exchange wagering it could be dead already.
I'm sure you realize practically every part of the front office other than an NJSEA board member is in place at Monmouth Park running the facility many of which have numerous years experience in this industry. The horseman are a figurehead group that was named to run the track to appease the Racing commission and allow the build out of the Hillsborough OTW amongst other things. The group has little to no power which is highly documented.
We can agree on many things that is wrong with NJ racing but it isn't dead and I strongly believe it will find its way out of thos turbulent period it is going through just like many other tracks across America today.
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Old 06-03-2017, 08:24 AM   #49
Bluto Blutarsky
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The madness is that Monmouth is being run by a Central Jersey personal injury attorney Dennis Drazin and an incompetent retired state employee/failed racing executive, Bob Kulina.
I encourage anyone one who has an interest in seeing how Drazin is compensated for his `counsel` to the NJ horsemen to use the link below. It will take you to documents on Hillsborough Township website that were submitted when the horsemen were applying for the OTW license in Hillsborough. There is a lot there. But pay specific attention to the `Forbes Certificate Exhibits`. This is were you will see how Drazin is compensated thru his 2 LLCs (Elite Consulting & Darby) by the horsemen for his `counsel`. When the track-OTWs/horsemen lose money, he gets paid well. When the track-OTWs/horsemen make money, he gets paid VERY well.

http://www.hillsborough-nj.org/otw-application/

I hear constantly that Drazin was the only one to step up and want to to keep MP open. If Stronach or some other group was offered the deal that Drazin got, it is hard to believe there would not have been competition for MP and the OTWs.
Also, do you think really think Drazin wants these Hillsborough documents out there in the light of day?
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:34 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Bluto Blutarsky View Post
The madness is that Monmouth is being run by a Central Jersey personal injury attorney Dennis Drazin and an incompetent retired state employee/failed racing executive, Bob Kulina.
I encourage anyone one who has an interest in seeing how Drazin is compensated for his `counsel` to the NJ horsemen to use the link below. It will take you to documents on Hillsborough Township website that were submitted when the horsemen were applying for the OTW license in Hillsborough. There is a lot there. But pay specific attention to the `Forbes Certificate Exhibits`. This is were you will see how Drazin is compensated thru his 2 LLCs (Elite Consulting & Darby) by the horsemen for his `counsel`. When the track-OTWs/horsemen lose money, he gets paid well. When the track-OTWs/horsemen make money, he gets paid VERY well.


http://www.hillsborough-nj.org/otw-application/

I hear constantly that Drazin was the only one to step up and want to to keep MP open. If Stronach or some other group was offered the deal that Drazin got, it is hard to believe there would not have been competition for MP and the OTWs.
Also, do you think really think Drazin wants these Hillsborough documents out there in the light of day?
The document you present is bothersome to most of the horseman if not all.
It shows a complete lack of respect for the hard work and efforts of the horseman to bring Drazins group into the picture to run the facility while as you stated those running the facility are paid for their services on a scale that is not consistent with the huge cutbacks in both breeders awards and purses plaguing MP. A bad business model to say the least. This is just another great deal brought to you by the folks at the NJSEA.
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Last edited by onefast99; 06-03-2017 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 06-03-2017, 09:49 AM   #51
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Monmouth will likely be standing in 2025.

For all the talk about how valuable for development the area is, the "extra" land around the track that actually has turned into developments has been mostly a dud, IMO. Maybe the residential has done okay but surely not the commercial / retail. Yet they still build. It does not fit the area.

I think the decision to do the elite meet back in 2010 (*7* years ago!) was ultimately a poor decision. The horsemen got to gorge one last time on the AC purse subsidy but they traded race days and races for it and that ultimately was a bad decision for any track to make in retrospect. The consolidation of races because of foal crops has affected tracks that have given in and run fewer races the most and many of the tracks likely to close are the ones running fewer races no matter what the purse situation looks like. This is the old "buy when the market is down" thing that the Stronach folks have been playing at GP and LRL. Both those tracks are well positioned for the future and I'd note that GP's purses are not that much better than MTH's - so I don't want to hear it's about purses.

So it's hard to say where Monmouth goes from here. It really can't grow beyond running a couple days a week only in the summer.

The stuff they did after the elite meet has been mixed IMO. Many here a quick to criticize what they did but once they made concessions for the "elite meet", which was pitched as a "home run", there was really no place to go.

Yes, they've overly focused on bringing in casino gaming and sports betting. And yes, the slots boat has mostly sailed as bringing them in won't do much IMO. Also, it's not clear that sports betting would be a boon either. Do note how far off the projections were with online poker in NJ - they are not even close to realizing the revenue they thought they would get. What's never discussed with sports betting is what the government's take will be for getting it above board. It's more than likely it will be high and your neighborhood bookie will still be in business, perhaps in better business than before. So I'm very skeptical about the sports betting thing should it come to fruition. The likelihood it "saves" Monmouth has been overstated by the powers that be.

What they've done on the grounds - min-golf, a new restaurant and some of the things done to woo the BC a decade ago are pretty mixed as well. I can see wanting to diversify and bring in families, it makes sense, but there's no serious effort to convert any to gambling on racing. This has lead to increases in parking and admission fees in an attempt to grow a slice of the attendance. Makes sense in a certain way but also kind of desperate too.

On the racing side of things they should be commended for getting the exchange done but here again, they've hamstrung betfair and launched something that at 12% take is basically a non-starter for the market.

I'm not sure what I would have done different but I probably would not have done the "elite meet".
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Old 06-03-2017, 10:17 AM   #52
Bluto Blutarsky
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Originally Posted by onefast99 View Post
The document you present is bothersome to most of the horseman if not all.
It shows a complete lack of respect for the hard work and efforts of the horseman to bring Drazins group into the picture to run the facility while as you stated those running the facility are paid for their services on a scale that is not consistent with the huge cutbacks in both breeders awards and purses plaguing MP. A bad business model to say the least. This is just another great deal brought to you by the folks at the NJSEA.
Nicely put. I am in complete agreement.
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Old 06-03-2017, 11:34 AM   #53
onefast99
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Originally Posted by o_crunk View Post
Monmouth will likely be standing in 2025.

For all the talk about how valuable for development the area is, the "extra" land around the track that actually has turned into developments has been mostly a dud, IMO. Maybe the residential has done okay but surely not the commercial / retail. Yet they still build. It does not fit the area.

I think the decision to do the elite meet back in 2010 (*7* years ago!) was ultimately a poor decision. The horsemen got to gorge one last time on the AC purse subsidy but they traded race days and races for it and that ultimately was a bad decision for any track to make in retrospect. The consolidation of races because of foal crops has affected tracks that have given in and run fewer races the most and many of the tracks likely to close are the ones running fewer races no matter what the purse situation looks like. This is the old "buy when the market is down" thing that the Stronach folks have been playing at GP and LRL. Both those tracks are well positioned for the future and I'd note that GP's purses are not that much better than MTH's - so I don't want to hear it's about purses.

So it's hard to say where Monmouth goes from here. It really can't grow beyond running a couple days a week only in the summer.

The stuff they did after the elite meet has been mixed IMO. Many here a quick to criticize what they did but once they made concessions for the "elite meet", which was pitched as a "home run", there was really no place to go.

Yes, they've overly focused on bringing in casino gaming and sports betting. And yes, the slots boat has mostly sailed as bringing them in won't do much IMO. Also, it's not clear that sports betting would be a boon either. Do note how far off the projections were with online poker in NJ - they are not even close to realizing the revenue they thought they would get. What's never discussed with sports betting is what the government's take will be for getting it above board. It's more than likely it will be high and your neighborhood bookie will still be in business, perhaps in better business than before. So I'm very skeptical about the sports betting thing should it come to fruition. The likelihood it "saves" Monmouth has been overstated by the powers that be.

What they've done on the grounds - min-golf, a new restaurant and some of the things done to woo the BC a decade ago are pretty mixed as well. I can see wanting to diversify and bring in families, it makes sense, but there's no serious effort to convert any to gambling on racing. This has lead to increases in parking and admission fees in an attempt to grow a slice of the attendance. Makes sense in a certain way but also kind of desperate too.

On the racing side of things they should be commended for getting the exchange done but here again, they've hamstrung betfair and launched something that at 12% take is basically a non-starter for the market.

I'm not sure what I would have done different but I probably would not have done the "elite meet".
You have brought up many good points. The first one is the facility itself. They lease it, why spend a penny on doing anything to the structure itself? It is evident no one has since 2007 when the Breeders Cup gave them millions to step back and let the BC group run the show. Just look at the grandstand seating and the bird crap all over the owners boxes, unacceptable to anyone and everyone. The state owns the building, set aside some money and keep the structure sound NJ deserves better.
No one ever said SW will save the live racing in NJ, it is something well needed that can add to the purses and make the racing competitive with NY and Pa. It may also get the breeding program in NJ going as well.
William Hill has the sports betting room all ready to go, it is all wired up!
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:37 AM   #54
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You have brought up many good points. The first one is the facility itself. They lease it, why spend a penny on doing anything to the structure itself? It is evident no one has since 2007 when the Breeders Cup gave them millions to step back and let the BC group run the show. Just look at the grandstand seating and the bird crap all over the owners boxes, unacceptable to anyone and everyone. The state owns the building, set aside some money and keep the structure sound NJ deserves better.
No one ever said SW will save the live racing in NJ, it is something well needed that can add to the purses and make the racing competitive with NY and Pa. It may also get the breeding program in NJ going as well.
William Hill has the sports betting room all ready to go, it is all wired up!
This is Drazin and Monmouth Park to the courts just six months ago:

Thoroughbred horsemen, led by Dennis Drazin who operates the Monmouth Park track in Oceanport, petitioned the high court to review the case on grounds that the horse racing industry is losing $1 million a week due to sports betting prohibition.

“The only business revenue stream that can save Monmouth Park at the present time is revenue from sports betting,” attorney Ron Riccio, a lawyer representing the plaintiffs, wrote in court documents.


I know it's popular to say well they don't really mean that. I know it's popular these days not to say "take it seriously, not literally" but I'll tend to believe what they have to say when they argue it in court and not in the press. And here we have the MTH mastermind making a petition to the court that the only way to save MTH is sports betting. Seems pretty ridiculous on its face.

Further, you've put forth in this thread more than a couple times that the state should step in fix up the facility because the horsemen and Drazin simply lease it. But Drazin and the horsemen put the money up for the mini golf and all the other stuff they've done. No one goes to Monmouth to sit in the grandstand. No one did even when it had it's heyday 40 years ago. They went to sit in the picnic area, to be outside, to bring their cooler on the apron.

Fixing the grandstand is the least of Monmouth's problems.
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Old 06-04-2017, 08:55 AM   #55
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You have brought up many good points. The first one is the facility itself. They lease it, why spend a penny on doing anything to the structure itself? It is evident no one has since 2007 when the Breeders Cup gave them millions to step back and let the BC group run the show. Just look at the grandstand seating and the bird crap all over the owners boxes, unacceptable to anyone and everyone. The state owns the building, set aside some money and keep the structure sound NJ deserves better.
No one ever said SW will save the live racing in NJ, it is something well needed that can add to the purses and make the racing competitive with NY and Pa. It may also get the breeding program in NJ going as well.
William Hill has the sports betting room all ready to go, it is all wired up!

Nice card yesterday. On track it was a sparse crowd but the betting on and off track was solid- nearly $5 million all in. And...there are 4 new flat screens replacing the Cigar-era (at best) tubes in the picnic area TV bank! Thanks Mr. Anderson!
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:01 AM   #56
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Nice card yesterday. On track it was a sparse crowd but the betting on and off track was solid- nearly $5 million all in. And...there are 4 new flat screens replacing the Cigar-era (at best) tubes in the picnic area TV bank! Thanks Mr. Anderson!
Would have broke $5 million if there wasn't an issue with some ADWs and the field size of the stake race. Still trying to figure that one out when the draw was done in advance
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Old 06-04-2017, 09:51 AM   #57
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Would have broke $5 million if there wasn't an issue with some ADWs and the field size of the stake race. Still trying to figure that one out when the draw was done in advance
Yeah heard about that from a friend who was off-track (I was on-track). Really sucks when Brad Thomas was touting the race as the best betting race of the entire weekend. Nice card and rain (but on the "turf") at Gulfstream- the stars finally aligned in a good way. Blu Grotto after the races was pretty good was betting the Penn and SA races from there and they put the hockey on when it started. They need to get the live music going right when the races end (sound checks before) to help raise awareness. Was there until 9!
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Old 06-04-2017, 01:26 PM   #58
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If it is still standing, Jorge Navarro will probably own it. He is making a mockery of the sport. Yesterday's first race is yet another example. The guy just runs wild there with impunity.
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:12 PM   #59
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Finally a weekend with a decent handle at MP.

Average 8 starters per race.

As long as they have turf racing seems like good sized fields always show up for that.

allan
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Old 06-04-2017, 07:31 PM   #60
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On the racing side of things they should be commended for getting the exchange done but here again, they've hamstrung betfair and launched something that at 12% take is basically a non-starter for the market.

".
It's not the 12% commission that is the major roadblock to exchange wagering in America but the lack of knowledge. It's so easy for Someone to go to a pm window and say give me 2 bucks to win on the 1. Done.

It's a lot harder on the exchange. It's fixed odds betting and how many people (even here on PA) know what the true odds of a horse and whether they are getting good odds.

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