A reason to go to the Belmont now

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Fager:

Here's what used to happen. They might enter a horse returning in a conditioned allowance or a minor stakes. But as they raced the horse into condition, they came back into the bigger stakes. And then they would run in several of them, and start the horse 6 or 8 or 10 or even 12 or more times during the year.

In that context, nothing wrong with the easy race to race the horse into condition.

What happens now is the horse runs in 4 starts, all Grade I's, during the year, handpicked to avoid the major competition until the Breeders' Cup. If we are lucky. Sometimes, as with Holy Bull and Rachel Alexandra, they duck the Breeders' Cup and figure the parochial New York voters will give them the Eclipse Award anyway.

I could talk about long ago things like Noor and Citation or Affirmed and Alydar, but consider this-- Precisionist and Greinton met each other 8 times. Silver Charm and Free House met each other 6 times.

Do any comparable horses ever meet each other 6 times anymore?

You're all over the map.

Holy Bull ducked the BC? No. He wasn't nominated and his owner/trainer wasn't going to pay the absurd supplemental fee. Rachel ducked the BC? No. Her owner wasn't going to run his magnificent dirt filly on synthetic.

You lose credibility when you claim ducking of a 3yo who took on its elders in the Met Mile, and a filly who ran in the Preakness, Haskell, and more importantly took on older males in the Woodward. Songbird's owner ducked no one with Hard Spun, ran a filly in the Derby, and ran another filly in the Woodward.

You fuss about ducking but pluck out the connections that sure don't duck. You complain about ducking but then say those non-duckers often ran in softer spots.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You're all over the map.

Holy Bull ducked the BC? No. He wasn't nominated and his owner/trainer wasn't going to pay the absurd supplemental fee. Rachel ducked the BC? No. Her owner wasn't going to run his magnificent dirt filly on synthetic.

You lose credibility when you claim ducking of a 3yo who took on its elders in the Met Mile, and a filly who ran in the Preakness, Haskell, and more importantly took on older males in the Woodward. Songbird's owner ducked no one with Hard Spun, ran a filly in the Derby, and ran another filly in the Woodward.

You fuss about ducking but pluck out the connections that sure don't duck. You complain about ducking but then say those non-duckers often ran in softer spots.

Fager:

I bet if voters made clear that you weren't going to win an Eclipse Award if you didn't run in the BC and the horse was sound, that would affect quite a few of these decisions.

Your mistake is thinking that races like the Met Mile are the equivalent of the BC. They aren't. The BC dwarves everything except Dubai maybe (or the Pegasus if it continues). The BC fields are simply far stronger than anything else running.

A lot of New York fans hate this, because it destroyed their championship races. But the reality is it did. So if you aren't running a sound horse in the BC, for ANY reason, you are ducking. And saying "but I ran in some New York stakes race that means a lot less than it did 30 years ago" isn't any more persuasive a defense than "but I ran in the Santa Anita Handicap" would be.

Also, go back and look at my point on Sliver Charm and Free House. That's what happens when horses actually don't duck each other and run often when they are sound. Doesn't happen anymore. When's the last time 2 top horses met six times?

[cj]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Also, go back and look at my point on Sliver Charm and Free House. That's what happens when horses actually don't duck each other and run often when they are sound. Doesn't happen anymore. When's the last time 2 top horses met six times?

You are right. It has been forever. You have to go way back to Nyquist versus Exaggerator, who met seven times.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Fager:

I bet if voters made clear that you weren't going to win an Eclipse Award if you didn't run in the BC and the horse was sound, that would affect quite a few of these decisions.

Your mistake is thinking that races like the Met Mile are the equivalent of the BC. They aren't. The BC dwarves everything except Dubai maybe (or the Pegasus if it continues). The BC fields are simply far stronger than anything else running.

A lot of New York fans hate this, because it destroyed their championship races. But the reality is it did. So if you aren't running a sound horse in the BC, for ANY reason, you are ducking. And saying "but I ran in some New York stakes race that means a lot less than it did 30 years ago" isn't any more persuasive a defense than "but I ran in the Santa Anita Handicap" would be.

Also, go back and look at my point on Sliver Charm and Free House. That's what happens when horses actually don't duck each other and run often when they are sound. Doesn't happen anymore. When's the last time 2 top horses met six times?

You think a 3yo filly winning the distaff means more than beating older males in the Whitney? Wrong.

You think someone should run their turf or dirt horse on their non-preferred surface just because it's called the BC? Wrong.

You think someone, particularly someone who isn't a billionaire, should pay an absurd supplemental fee to run in the BC? Wrong. Or that running 10 times that year wasn't an already taxing campaign? Wrong again.

No race, including the BC and KD, is the end all be all. You need a major opinion adjustment if you really think so.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by cj

You are right. It has been forever. You have to go way back to Nyquist versus Exaggerator, who met seven times.

Blind Luck and Havre de Grace raced at least 6 times.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by cj

You are right. It has been forever. You have to go way back to Nyquist versus Exaggerator, who met seven times.

And never mind neither Silver Charm nor Free House nor Nyquist nor Exaggerator ran in the Breeder's Cup during their 3yo seasons.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

And never mind neither Silver Charm nor Free House nor Nyquist nor Exaggerator ran in the Breeder's Cup during their 3yo seasons.

Scorch!

[depalma113]

A champion being pointed to a Grade One race worth $750,000 on what is the second biggest day of racing of the year and she is the one ducking?

LMFAO!

[PowerUpPaynter]

how bad is it trying to catch a train back to penn station after the race?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by cj

You are right. It has been forever. You have to go way back to Nyquist versus Exaggerator, who met seven times.

That's really not the same. They met twice in the TC and once after.

The 2 year old meetings count, of course, but there wasn't a rivalry yet.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Spalding No!

And never mind neither Silver Charm nor Free House nor Nyquist nor Exaggerator ran in the Breeder's Cup during their 3yo seasons.

Nyquist and Exaggerator were already through!

Silver Charm and Free House went on and ran as older horses. Apples and oranges.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by depalma113

A champion being pointed to a Grade One race worth $750,000 on what is the second biggest day of racing of the year and she is the one ducking?

LMFAO!

That argument only works if you believe the Ogden Phipps will draw a strong field.

It won't.

[cj]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

That argument only works if you believe the Ogden Phipps will draw a strong field.

It won't.

I would argue the others are ducking. Why go to a race with only half the purse? They ducked Songbird.

[cj]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

That's really not the same. They met twice in the TC and once after.

The 2 year old meetings count, of course, but there wasn't a rivalry yet.

They met twice after the TC...keep trying.

[Redboard]

Originally Posted by PowerUpPaynter

how bad is it trying to catch a train back to penn station after the race?

Without a triple crown on the line and plenty of tickets available, I can't see much of a problem, but I haven't taken it in a while. Maybe someone here has a more firsthand answer to this question.

I'd be interested in their answer too.