Religion III

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

You are talking about the measurements. Measurements,such as radius and area are always two dimensional. Spheres are three dimensional figures.

Measurements are not the object.

Read those two books and get back to me.

The following treats the subject on a more elementary level.

https://www.amazon.com/Flatland-Roma...s%2C185&sr=1-3

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

You are talking about the measurements. Measurements,such as radius and area are always two dimensional. Spheres are three dimensional figures.

Measurements are not the object.

Measurements can also be 3 dimensional

2,000 years before the development of calculus, the Greek mathematician Archimedes worked out a simple formula for the volume of a sphere:



Additionally they can be applied to higher dimensions

In 1908, Hermann Minkowski presented a paper[8] consolidating the role of time as the fourth dimension of spacetime, the basis for Einstein's theories of special and general relativity.[9] But the geometry of spacetime, being non-Euclidean, is profoundly different from that popularised by Hinton. The study of Minkowski space required new mathematics quite different from that of four-dimensional Euclidean space, and so developed along quite different lines. This separation was less clear in the popular imagination, with works of fiction and philosophy blurring the distinction, so in 1973 H. S. M. Coxeter felt compelled to write:

[boxcar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
You see how angry you get when I show you how small and impotent and weak your god is. You even have to resort to vulgarity -- no doubt filled with God's love.

Light:

And your condemning me to hell so many times is NOT Vulgur? There is no comparison! You NEVER see yourself as offensive, only others.

It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that you find so offensive. You refuse to accept the bad news about yourself, which is why you cannot accept the good news. It is the bad news aspect to the Gospel that condemns unbelievers to Hell.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God [RIGHT NOW] abides on him."
NASB


Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
Your carnal mind reasoned hypnosis because you think you're equal to God and can understand his ways. But the reality is that you don't have the first clue how God can move in men's hearts to do his will!

Light:

Tell me something that is NOT stupid.I dare you.

Okay, that's easy. Because of your general disdain for scripture, you swept all the prooftexts aside that I provided in 127 (in the now defunct Religious IV thread) and ignored addressing them. You'd rather believe your own lie that I made up God's sovereignty, and that He's isn't nearly as intrusive into people's lives as scripture says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
Your second huge problem is your pantheism. How can a god who is a blade of grass, a rock, a lump of coal, a tree, a swamp, a worm, a dog turd, etc., etc. also be Almighty Sovereign King who rules over his creation? How can He rule over his creation when He is the creation in your pantheistic lunacy!?

Light:

More stupidity. YOU labeled me a pantheist. I don't consider myself any "labels" especially any by you who can't tell a black hole from his own hole.

That's a lie! In the past you have labeled yourself as a pantheist. You believe that God is all and all is God. Has God's love within in you taught you to be such a liar?

But now you want to walk that back, right? You don't consider yourself any label? Really? So, you're going to hide behind a cloak of secrecy so that you can further deceive us and play the religious chameleon when convenient or expedient?

So, what are you: A religious Nothing Burger? Are you even going to throw your beloved Buddha under the bus, too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
You need to flush down the crapper your jolly ol' St. Nick view of God, as the guy in the sky with with the big big red jowls, a bowl full of jelly for a belly, who also sports a long white beard and who is always laughing his butt off because He's just so happy with everyone onthe planet and tickled pink that he gets to love each of us unconditionally. That idol, or anything similar to it, that you have erected in your heart will only buy you a one way ticket to the Lake of Fire upon your demise.
I've lost count but is this the 82nd or 83rd time you have condemned me to Hell?

None of what you said is even a close or relevant argument of rebuttable to what I said.

But I have rebutted what you said with seven passages of scripture in 127.

Light:

That the Biblical books you consider the literal word of God, is the editing of a murderous emperor and corrupt officials.

For your god, the task of preservation would be impossible. But not for the God of the bible. God is greater than men's hearts, greater than Satan and greater than all the cumulative evil in the world -- greater than all the evil in hell itself!

Light:

No wonder the majority of your rhetoric is death,Hell, condemnation, hate, Ego coupled with stupidity and ignorance and a disrespect for Love.

I hate no one. If I hated anyone, I'd pull a Dave Schwartz and keep my mouth shut and not share the gospel with anyone, and very likely take great delight in the likelihood of their eternal condemnation. I would tempt God to go ahead himself and save people in spite of themselves. But the love of God in me won't allow me to this. His grace won't permit me to do this. For such an attitude as I described above would be exceedingly wicked on multiple levels.

Light:

Oh yeah, you seem like a perfect candidate for heaven,wink wink.

Only because God has graciously qualified me.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by SMTW

Measurements are not the object.

Try telling that to boxcar or any literal interpreter of the bible or any scripture.

The "map" of the "territory" is confused for the actual territory. The most subtle process of how religion becomes distorted and degraded. Thematic and metaphorical interpretation may help to uncover significant content.

[Dave Schwartz]

Although I agree with your post as a whole...I don't understand what you mean in the sentence of yours that I've isolated above. I, personally, have never laughed at ANY "believer"...until that believer laughed at me first. When people like Boxcar accuse me of "being stuck on stupid", then I feel justified to answer him in kind...even though I seldom do. That aside...I am quite content in allowing everyone the religious opinions that we all deserve. When you say that "YOU guys are the ones with the joyous lives"...are you implying that you have some sort of knowledge as to the kinds of lives that the REST of us are leading? Do you suppose that it's difficult for a non-Christian to go to bed as "worry-free" as YOU do?

Boxcar calls us "unbelievers"...as if one is only a "believer" if he believes in what boxcar happens to believe. He says that we "hate God"...just because we refuse to bow down to the same God-image that boxcar himself has created. Boxcar reserves his most vitriolic comments for Light, who not only is a Christian himself...but who also holds the sort of mature religious opinions that even a non-Christian can't readily disagree with.

When you say that boxcar "isn't sent by God"...I think you greatly understate your point. IMO...boxcar is doing the DEVIL'S work here. His blatant vanity and his outright hostility against the other religions can do no less than repel WAY more people than he could possibly attract to the Christian God that he professes so much "love" for. In fact...one wouldn't be wrong if he opined that...if there was no boxcar...then the Devil would have to create him anew.

1.I don't understand what you mean in the sentence of yours that I've isolated above. I, personally, have never laughed at ANY "believer"...until that believer laughed at me first.

This is what you referenced.
You who have have no belief laugh at us, yet we are the ones with the joyous lives.

Short answer: You logically should laugh at us.

Why would anyone who is not a true follower of Christ not laugh? The entire premise of God as a supernatural being is absurd.

Except if it isn't.

But the point should not be the laughter. The point is the success of life.

I've mentioned multiple times that I do not worry. In my life, when things go really wrong, my stress level shoots up to about a 3. The absolute top has been a 4.

This includes stress over lack of spousal harmony, finances, health, children... everything.

To me, lack of stress is a gigantic benefit. It is pretty standard among believers with understanding of what God wants.

Note that understanding is normal but not average. I'd guess that about 15% of believers have that level of understanding.

I heard a statistic once - purely anecdotal as I do not have any proof. But a speaker once said that the incidence of divorce among believers with a strong daily prayer life was 1-in-1,054.

He also quoted similar with addiction issues. Almost no alcohol, drugs, gambling, porn, infidelity, etc.


Boxcar calls us "unbelievers"...as if one is only a "believer" if he believes in what boxcar happens to believe. He says that we "hate God"...just because we refuse to bow down to the same God-image that boxcar himself has created.

Yes, that would be what he meant. It is also what he said in his usual less-than-tactful way.

I did the same thing, using the term "Believer," as a label to describe a "believer in Christ." Of course, there are other types of believers.

IMHO, anyone who says that their God is the only way to heaven (or Valhalla, whatever), is simply espousing their belief in their faith.

Do I have this? Well, yes and no.

"Yes," in the sense that I believe that God --- THE GOD I WORSHIP --- is the only way to get there.

But also, "No" in the sense of "How the heck would I know if God is spread across multiple religions?"

Do I believe the Christian God is the one true and only way to the hereafter? Of course I do. It is part of the teaching.

But I have no need to bring you and all the others around to my way of thinking. As I have said before, that is up to God.

Does all this sound pretty arrogant? Well, it does if you choose to hear it that way. I have my beliefs, you have yours. I think mine are right, but I also know that I my beliefs have their basis in man and that makes them fallible.

I am not saying that the bible is not the word of God. I believe it originally was. But it has been translated by man, and anything man touches is highly fallible.

One must remember that there are many biblical questions with at least two sides, and both sides have learned scholars who put forth scriptural proof. These proofs are often in contradiction.

So, how can I have such strong conviction despite these issues? Because of what I have experienced first hand. That one story I told is really just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more, including one that involved me directly.


2. When you say that "YOU guys are the ones with the joyous lives"...are you implying that you have some sort of knowledge as to the kinds of lives that the REST of us are leading? Do you suppose that it's difficult for a non-Christian to go to bed as "worry-free" as YOU do?

I have no knowledge of anyone on an individual basis. However, I do know what I see and I make judgments based upon that.

Do I see being worry-free as very difficult? I absolutely do. Of course, I am really comparing my life of worry and unhappiness before Christ to my life after.

Logically, this biases me towards thinking that worry and unhappiness is relatively average.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps "average" in our society is a near-stress-free life of security, full of love towards one's spouse and family members, etc., with little addiction issues.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.


3. When you say that boxcar "isn't sent by God"...I think you greatly understate your point. IMO...boxcar is doing the DEVIL'S work here. His blatant vanity and his outright hostility against the other religions can do no less than repel WAY more people than he could possibly attract to the Christian God that he professes so much "love" for.

While I cannot speak to "Devil's work," his approach certainly does not correspond to doing God's work.

There was a man I discipled about 20 years ago, who was had been a Christ follower since I met him back in the 1980s. (Way longer than I was a believer.)

About 8 or 10 weeks into the process he asked me, "How many times do you present the gospel to someone before you stop?"

(BC would step forth here with a bible quote that would indicate that you never stop. Let's step past that for a moment.)

Upon further questioning, it seemed that he'd become a pariah at work (in the gaming industry). People would see him coming and avoid him because they knew that they were going to get a lecture from the bible.

He thought that his lot in life was to be persecuted for spreading the word, and this just came with being a Christian.

The conversation went like this:

Me: "What is evangelism?"

Him: "It is about sharing the gospel and spreading the word of God."

Me: "I think you have misunderstood. Your job is not to bring people to Christ. What you do has no value to God. God brings them to Him. Do you understand that?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "You lost a child to leukemia, right?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "That gives you a unique perspective on that type of loss, doesn't it?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "One day, one of your co-workers will lose a child. When that time comes, God will choose you to come forward and minister to them using the things that you know."

"Does that not make far more sense than beating them daily with the bible?"

Him: "It does."

Me: "Can you imagine that your daily beatings of them could actually cause them to develop an immunity to listening to what they need to hear?"

This is the impact that Boxcar has on people.


BTW, you may notice that I do not pepper my comments with biblical quotes all the time. That is primarily because "bible speaking" to a non-believer is generally about convincing the listener that the speaker is very learned.

That is a bad thing because it conveys the idea that gaining the love of Christ is something that must be attained to. It sends a message that sounds a lot like, "With decades of study and hard work, you to can attain what I have! See how great I am?"

That's just not the way it is.

There is another reason why I don't quote lots of scripture. It's because I don't know very much. LOL

I've had the good fortune to have wonderful, selfless teachers. The have taught me that "understanding" is far superior to being able to regurgitate bible quotes on demand.


An Actual Bible Principal One Might Use
OK, small teaching session. Perhaps someone will find value in it.

Romans 7 vs. Romans 8
Loosely speaking, Romans 7 is about man's effort to improve himself for God. This is a lofty and high-minded goal. The problem is that it never works.

NEVER.

We simply cannot make ourselves good enough.

It forces us to live in an environment where what matters is reducing sin.

It also leads to constant guilt at all the things we are not; all the shortcomings we have.


By comparison, Romans 8 is about allowing God to transform our thinking. In the original thread, I used this graphic to depict the scenario:



The graphic depicts me at 6 o'clock, God at 12 o'clock, and life in the middle.

The concept is really pretty simple. If I allow myself to be transformed, so that over time I begin to see the world more from God's POV, then sin will just logically lessen.

A Christian who lives the kind of life does not lead a guilt-ridden life. Rather he/she lives with an expectation of learning from one's mistakes.

So, there are two clear sides... Base your life on behavior or base it upon a proper relationship.

The behaviorism side sees it as having a DO-LIST and a DON'T-LIST. Picture that as 5% of our lives.

What God wants is the 95% in the middle.

I hope this helps.


Dave

[Tom]

My prayers were answered.
Thread #IV was closed.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

But I have no need to bring you and all the others around to my way of thinking. As I have said before, that is up to God.

Does all this sound pretty arrogant? Well, it does if you choose to hear it that way. I have my beliefs, you have yours. I think mine are right, but I also know that I my beliefs have their basis in man and that makes them fallible

I am a Jew, but rebelled against my initial exposure to all of my literal minded family and rabbis who missed the point. But still the experiences in shul and yiddish music impressed the non intellectual in me. It was not until I studied all religions, eastern and western, did I begin to see commonalities at the root of all. And through re-reading both the OT and NT and Kabbalah that I developed an appreciation for the Abrahamic traditions. Including Islamic Sufism.

My take on your diagram includes our effort to discover the divine in the midst of our usual lackadaisical habits. The anthropomorphic projections of our own limited understanding is often what interferes with a truer understanding. But sometimes is used by great communicators.

Like Michelangelo indicating that although there is a vigorous outreach by the source, we do not usually do the work necessary to reach back

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

There was a man I discipled about 20 years ago, who was had been a Christ follower since I met him back in the 1980s. (Way longer than I was a believer.)

About 8 or 10 weeks into the process he asked me, "How many times do you present the gospel to someone before you stop?"

(BC would step forth here with a bible quote that would indicate that you never stop. Let's step past that for a moment.)

Upon further questioning, it seemed that he'd become a pariah at work (in the gaming industry). People would see him coming and avoid him because they knew that they were going to get a lecture from the bible.

He thought that his lot in life was to be persecuted for spreading the word, and this just came with being a Christian.

The conversation went like this:[INDENT]
Me: "What is evangelism?"

Him: "It is about sharing the gospel and spreading the word of God."

Me: "I think you have misunderstood. Your job is not to bring people to Christ. What you do has no value to God. God brings them to Him. Do you understand that?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "You lost a child to leukemia, right?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "That gives you a unique perspective on that type of loss, doesn't it?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "One day, one of your co-workers will lose a child. When that time comes, God will choose you to come forward and minister to them using the things that you know."

"Does that not make far more sense than beating them daily with the bible?"

Why the machinations?

Why didn't God simply cure the cancer?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

1.I don't understand what you mean in the sentence of yours that I've isolated above. I, personally, have never laughed at ANY "believer"...until that believer laughed at me first.

This is what you referenced.
You who have have no belief laugh at us, yet we are the ones with the joyous lives.

Short answer: You logically should laugh at us.

Why would anyone who is not a true follower of Christ not laugh? The entire premise of God as a supernatural being is absurd.

Except if it isn't.

But the point should not be the laughter. The point is the success of life.

I've mentioned multiple times that I do not worry. In my life, when things go really wrong, my stress level shoots up to about a 3. The absolute top has been a 4.

This includes stress over lack of spousal harmony, finances, health, children... everything.

To me, lack of stress is a gigantic benefit. It is pretty standard among believers with understanding of what God wants.

Note that understanding is normal but not average. I'd guess that about 15% of believers have that level of understanding.

I heard a statistic once - purely anecdotal as I do not have any proof. But a speaker once said that the incidence of divorce among believers with a strong daily prayer life was 1-in-1,054.

He also quoted similar with addiction issues. Almost no alcohol, drugs, gambling, porn, infidelity, etc.


Boxcar calls us "unbelievers"...as if one is only a "believer" if he believes in what boxcar happens to believe. He says that we "hate God"...just because we refuse to bow down to the same God-image that boxcar himself has created.

Yes, that would be what he meant. It is also what he said in his usual less-than-tactful way.

I did the same thing, using the term "Believer," as a label to describe a "believer in Christ." Of course, there are other types of believers.

IMHO, anyone who says that their God is the only way to heaven (or Valhalla, whatever), is simply espousing their belief in their faith.

Do I have this? Well, yes and no.

"Yes," in the sense that I believe that God --- THE GOD I WORSHIP --- is the only way to get there.

But also, "No" in the sense of "How the heck would I know if God is spread across multiple religions?"

Do I believe the Christian God is the one true and only way to the hereafter? Of course I do. It is part of the teaching.

But I have no need to bring you and all the others around to my way of thinking. As I have said before, that is up to God.

Does all this sound pretty arrogant? Well, it does if you choose to hear it that way. I have my beliefs, you have yours. I think mine are right, but I also know that I my beliefs have their basis in man and that makes them fallible.

I am not saying that the bible is not the word of God. I believe it originally was. But it has been translated by man, and anything man touches is highly fallible.

One must remember that there are many biblical questions with at least two sides, and both sides have learned scholars who put forth scriptural proof. These proofs are often in contradiction.

So, how can I have such strong conviction despite these issues? Because of what I have experienced first hand. That one story I told is really just the tip of the iceberg. There are many more, including one that involved me directly.


2. When you say that "YOU guys are the ones with the joyous lives"...are you implying that you have some sort of knowledge as to the kinds of lives that the REST of us are leading? Do you suppose that it's difficult for a non-Christian to go to bed as "worry-free" as YOU do?

I have no knowledge of anyone on an individual basis. However, I do know what I see and I make judgments based upon that.

Do I see being worry-free as very difficult? I absolutely do. Of course, I am really comparing my life of worry and unhappiness before Christ to my life after.

Logically, this biases me towards thinking that worry and unhappiness is relatively average.

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps "average" in our society is a near-stress-free life of security, full of love towards one's spouse and family members, etc., with little addiction issues.

I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.


3. When you say that boxcar "isn't sent by God"...I think you greatly understate your point. IMO...boxcar is doing the DEVIL'S work here. His blatant vanity and his outright hostility against the other religions can do no less than repel WAY more people than he could possibly attract to the Christian God that he professes so much "love" for.

While I cannot speak to "Devil's work," his approach certainly does not correspond to doing God's work.

There was a man I discipled about 20 years ago, who was had been a Christ follower since I met him back in the 1980s. (Way longer than I was a believer.)

About 8 or 10 weeks into the process he asked me, "How many times do you present the gospel to someone before you stop?"

(BC would step forth here with a bible quote that would indicate that you never stop. Let's step past that for a moment.)

Upon further questioning, it seemed that he'd become a pariah at work (in the gaming industry). People would see him coming and avoid him because they knew that they were going to get a lecture from the bible.

He thought that his lot in life was to be persecuted for spreading the word, and this just came with being a Christian.

The conversation went like this:

Me: "What is evangelism?"

Him: "It is about sharing the gospel and spreading the word of God."

Me: "I think you have misunderstood. Your job is not to bring people to Christ. What you do has no value to God. God brings them to Him. Do you understand that?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "You lost a child to leukemia, right?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "That gives you a unique perspective on that type of loss, doesn't it?"

Him: "Yes."

Me: "One day, one of your co-workers will lose a child. When that time comes, God will choose you to come forward and minister to them using the things that you know."

"Does that not make far more sense than beating them daily with the bible?"

Him: "It does."

Me: "Can you imagine that your daily beatings of them could actually cause them to develop an immunity to listening to what they need to hear?"

This is the impact that Boxcar has on people.


BTW, you may notice that I do not pepper my comments with biblical quotes all the time. That is primarily because "bible speaking" to a non-believer is generally about convincing the listener that the speaker is very learned.

That is a bad thing because it conveys the idea that gaining the love of Christ is something that must be attained to. It sends a message that sounds a lot like, "With decades of study and hard work, you to can attain what I have! See how great I am?"

That's just not the way it is.

There is another reason why I don't quote lots of scripture. It's because I don't know very much. LOL

I've had the good fortune to have wonderful, selfless teachers. The have taught me that "understanding" is far superior to being able to regurgitate bible quotes on demand.


An Actual Bible Principal One Might Use
OK, small teaching session. Perhaps someone will find value in it.

Romans 7 vs. Romans 8
Loosely speaking, Romans 7 is about man's effort to improve himself for God. This is a lofty and high-minded goal. The problem is that it never works.

NEVER.

We simply cannot make ourselves good enough.

It forces us to live in an environment where what matters is reducing sin.

It also leads to constant guilt at all the things we are not; all the shortcomings we have.


By comparison, Romans 8 is about allowing God to transform our thinking. In the original thread, I used this graphic to depict the scenario:



The graphic depicts me at 6 o'clock, God at 12 o'clock, and life in the middle.

The concept is really pretty simple. If I allow myself to be transformed, so that over time I begin to see the world more from God's POV, then sin will just logically lessen.

A Christian who lives the kind of life does not lead a guilt-ridden life. Rather he/she lives with an expectation of learning from one's mistakes.

So, there are two clear sides... Base your life on behavior or base it upon a proper relationship.

The behaviorism side sees it as having a DO-LIST and a DON'T-LIST. Picture that as 5% of our lives.

What God wants is the 95% in the middle.

I hope this helps.


Dave

Can you tell me, Dave, why Christ sent out the 12 and then the 70? Why did Christ give the Great Commission to his apostles? Why did Christ commission Paul to preach the gospel to the Gentiles? Why did Paul on all his missionary journeys make it point to visit a synagogue every sabbath to preach the gospel to Jews? Why did Paul tell us that the rest of the apostles were sent to preach the gospel to the Jews? Was evangelism supposed to cease after the apostles died? After they died, all was well with the world, was it? Are all the evangelical missionaries out laboring in this godless, dark, forsaken world preaching and teaching the gospel of the kingdom for the glory of God delusional? Should they all be called back home to take a permanent furlough? Should missionaries become extinct? if you're around at the end, would you be among those in the world who would celebrate the death of the Two Witnesses of Christ (Rev 11:3-12)?

And imbibing God's word, absorbing into your soul the living ,active, powerful, sharp Word of God (Heb 4:12) is a not a big deal to you? What a very strange attitude for a professing Christian! Were you not born again by the living and abiding Word God (1Pet 1:23)? If so and you were brought forth by the Word through the Spirit, have you so quickly outgrown it? You no longer earnestly desire or need the pure milk of God's Word (1Pet 2:2)? You have so matured in the Faith that you can live just on bread alone, contrary to Jesus' teaching (Lk 4:4)?

And you mock and criticize me for supporting the objective Christian Faith with the Word of God? Have you become so prejudiced against the Word, or has it become so outdated and outmoded for you that you have failed to notice how often unbelievers will cite or quote passages and totally misunderstand what the passage mean? Or have you missed how often unbelievers have challenged me to prove this, that or some other thing from scripture? Or has the bible become so jaded to you that it has become just another "great religious" book in the world?

I remember several years ago when you rebuked me for exhorting you to follow Paul's example -- which was actually a biblical exhortation found in many places throughout the NT. I don't recall exactly what you said, but it was something along the lines that you march to your own drum beat. You didn't need to follow Paul. Apparently, you don't need to follow Jesus either, since in the context of LK 4:4, Jesus was addressing Satan in the midst of warding off his temptations. In fact, if you ever read the Temptations of Christ, you would learn that Jesus used the Word of God to successfully ward off each temptation. I could be wrong...I stand to be corrected...but I think there's an important lesson in those accounts regarding the great significance to God's Word, not only in the theological realm but in the practical sphere, as well. But then again...for folks like you who have already attained to such lofty heights of spiritual maturity -- maybe not.

Take care, David.

[thaskalos]

I was born and raised in the most "Christian" country in the world...where the word "Christian" was proudly stamped on the people's government issued ID cards. We kids would have to report to school every Sunday morning, so a teacher could mark our attendance and take us to church as a class. And we were spoonfed all the typical religious jargon, about how "superior" our God was to that of everyone else...and how "doomed" everyone would be who didn't abide by the "word of God" as it was explained in a book written and compiled by mere men.

I could never consider myself an atheist because there is something real inside of me which keeps reminding me that there is a power much higher than man in the universe...and that our life has a definite purpose. My search to find that "higher purpose" has led me on a voyage from the ancient monasteries of Mount Athos, where I was mesmerized by elderly Christian monks...to the remote jungles of Thailand, where I sat at the feet of much-revered Buddhist masters. And as the words of these wise men sank into my soul, I could sense the presence of "God" all around me. And I realized that, just as it was MAN who has drawn geographical lines upon the map to distinguish our different states, lines which cannot be seen from an airplane high above...it was also man who has drawn distinguishing lines between the different religions...lines which cannot be seen when we dig deep into religion's very essense. "Don't fall for the exoteric forms of the different religions, where only argument and conceit can be found", a Chinese Zen master told me, "look into the ESOTERIC meaning of the seemingly different religions, and there you will find that...just as all the world's rivers travel different paths and yet end up pouring into the same ocean...all the world's religions might travel different paths, but then they all pour into the same God".

"Vanity of vanities...all is vanity", the bible says...and I repeat this as a mantra throughout my day. You wouldn't believe how much comfort and relief it provides for me.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Tom

My prayers were answered.
Thread #IV was closed.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

"Vanity of vanities...all is vanity", the bible says...and I repeat this as a mantra throughout my day. You wouldn't believe how much comfort and relief it provides for me.

Interesting how you have taken the opening words of Solomon to heart, but forget or ignore completely what his conclusion was about everything he observed in life "under the sun".

Eccl 12:13-14
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
NASB

Many, if not most of us, really do believe what we want to believe.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Interesting how you have taken the opening words of Solomon to heart, but forget or ignore completely what his conclusion was about everything he observed in life "under the sun".

Eccl 12:13-14
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
NASB

Many, if not most of us, really do believe what we want to believe.

I'm sure that Solomon had plenty more to say that the Church didn't see fit to include in the bible. If you are satisfied with the "Cliff Notes" version of religion, boxcar...then, who am I to dissuade you? But...can you really blame me for seeking out the "unabridged" version?

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Why the machinations?

Why didn't God simply cure the cancer?

You'd have to ask God.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Tom

My prayers were answered.
Thread #IV was closed.

It should never have been started in the first place. Common sense said that. I'm more likely to credit PA for that decision rather than divine intervention -- unless, of course, you were praying to him.