Religion III

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Soo...your sole purpose us to feel? I guess we haven't evolved very much, have we? Animals can feel too!

And yours is to nitpick and criticize what you clearly do not understand. Much later.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If your way works for you...congrats. Keep doing what you feel is right...and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. And I will do likewise.

To whom do I compare myself? I compare myself only to whom I was yesterday...and I endeavor to be a little better today.

Then you would reason in a circle with you being the premise and conclusion -- being the first and the last. You, in essence, are your own purpose -- your own chief end. In other words, you're your own god.

And I don't live my life by my feelings. My feelings can often be misleading. I try to live my life by objective, absolute truths. For example, Christians are commanded to love God and neighbor. But we must do that in truth because love needs to be informed by truth (2Jn1-3).

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

And yours is to nitpick and criticize what you clearly do not understand. Much later.

What I understand is that like Thask, you are a god unto yourself. You exist only to enjoy yourself and feel good about yourself. There are many philanthropists in this world who make generous donations for the dual purpose to be noticed by others, and also so they can break their own arm when patting themselves on the back. They really do feel good about themselves.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What I understand is that like Thask, you are a god unto yourself. You exist only to enjoy yourself and feel good about yourself. There are many philanthropists in this world who make generous donations for the dual purpose to be noticed by others, and also so they can break their own arm when patting themselves on the back. They really do feel good about themselves.

Then why did I speak of love and compassion? Which surprisingly a "good" Christian like you never does? Both Gus and I have commented negatively on your loveless, compassionless "total depravity" screed.

Bunky, I did say although feelings are a way to find value in one's life, I also said........

Originally Posted by hcap

I keep telling box he thinks religion and life to death. The value (purpose) of being is felt, and not so easily thought. But both work together as well.

My children, my animals, great music, art, literature, and wisdom of others passed on, are all points of light in the mix.

Now instead of nitpicking sentences and words, tell us how much of the world's religions without a deity, find purpose? Are they all deluded waiting for you to educate them?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What I understand is that like Thask, you are a god unto yourself. You exist only to enjoy yourself and feel good about yourself. There are many philanthropists in this world who make generous donations for the dual purpose to be noticed by others, and also so they can break their own arm when patting themselves on the back. They really do feel good about themselves.

First you ask for our life's "purpose", as if you are interested in a sincere discussion about the topic...and then you mock us when we are too slow in responding to your query. And when we finally DO respond...you belittle our "life purposes" by calling them trivial and self-serving...while pounding your chest because you consider YOUR life's purpose to be so much more "worthwhile" than ours. This compulsion that you have to prove yourself right and everybody else wrong...where does it come from, Boxcar? What makes you think that other people here will necessarily embrace your way of seeing things? Why can't you respect the opinions of others...as you would like OTHERS to respect YOUR opinions? Why must you twist and turn everything that we say into something that you can then make fun of? Where have I ever said that I am a god unto myself?

YOU are the guy with the irrevocable reservation for heaven...and I am the one who thinks he is God?

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What I understand is that like Thask, you are a god unto yourself. You exist only to enjoy yourself and feel good about yourself.

Sorry boxcar. I don't get that impression about Thaskalos at all.
He's a man genuinely searching for answers and perhaps that partly gives him purpose in life. I'm sure his son and caring for animals does as well.
I've always seen him as a pretty square shooter in various posts on this board.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

First you ask for our life's "purpose", as if you are interested in a sincere discussion about the topic...and then you mock us when we are too slow in responding to your query. And when we finally DO respond...you belittle our "life purposes" by calling them trivial and self-serving...while pounding your chest because you consider YOUR life's purpose to be so much more "worthwhile" than ours. This compulsion that you have to prove yourself right and everybody else wrong...where does it come from, Boxcar? What makes you think that other people here will necessarily embrace your way of seeing things? Why can't you respect the opinions of others...as you would like OTHERS to respect YOUR opinions? Why must you twist and turn everything that we say into something that you can then make fun of? Where have I ever said that I am a god unto myself?

YOU are the guy with the irrevocable reservation for heaven...and I am the one who thinks he is God?

I'm not mocking what you perceive your purpose in life is. I'm pointing out the logical flaws to your self-serving, self-centered purpose. Assuming you love yourself, you effectively become your own subjective standard against which you measure yourself. You effectively become the judge, jury and prosecutor all neatly wrapped up as one. If this is so difficult for you to understand, I can frame my critique in the context of sports and take it out of the abstract realm to demonstrate the validity of my argument.

It's a well known and established fact that athletes train and compete against other athletes from their own team for the purpose of improving their performance whether this be in the ring, on the track, on the court, on the field, on the ice rink, on the ski slope...wherever. By competing against standards external to and better than us, we sharpen our discipline, improve our skills, increase our endurance, etc. In short, we become better athletes because we have an objective standard outside ourselves by which to compare ourselves.

The same principle applies to finding purpose to life.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'm not mocking what you perceive your purpose in life is. I'm pointing out the logical flaws to your self-serving, self-centered purpose. Assuming you love yourself, you effectively become your own subjective standard against which you measure yourself. You effectively become the judge, jury and prosecutor all neatly wrapped up as one. If this is so difficult for you to understand, I can frame my critique in the context of sports and take it out of the abstract realm to demonstrate the validity of my argument.

It's a well known and established fact that athletes train and compete against other athletes from their own team for the purpose of improving their performance whether this be in the ring, on the track, on the court, on the field, on the ice rink, on the ski slope...wherever. By competing against standards external to and better than us, we sharpen our discipline, improve our skills, increase our endurance, etc. In short, we become better athletes because we have an objective standard outside ourselves by which to compare ourselves.

The same principle applies to finding purpose to life.

Oh...is that why you asked me to name my life's purpose? So you can point out to me the logical flaws in it? Where did I say that I "love myself"; is that what you got from my prior post? I said that I try to improve myself if I can, in some small way, from day-to-day...does that imply to you that I am in love with myself?

If you want to go out and compete against others in order to "sharpen your skills"...do you expect me to try and talk you out of it? Go out and compete all you want...with all by blessing. But I am content to fight against the enemy within. To quote the legendary Lao Tzu: "He who conquers others is strong...but he who conquers himself is mighty indeed".

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Then why did I speak of love and compassion? Which surprisingly a "good" Christian like you never does? Both Gus and I have commented negatively on your loveless, compassionless "total depravity" screed.

Bunky, I did say although feelings are a way to find value in one's life, I also said........

Now instead of nitpicking sentences and words, tell us how much of the world's religions without a deity, find purpose? Are they all deluded waiting for you to educate them?

But did you speak of love and compassion in truth? Wouldn't love and compassion be as relative as your morality? What is your idea of love?

Yes, anyone can conjure up purpose because life in a godless, purposeless, chaotic, intentionality-free, accidental universe from which we all supposedly have our roots, doesn't make sense otherwise. Understand: It should make perfectly good sense that we're just an accidental composite of cells, and neurons, various bits of matter in time and space, etc. . But oddly it doesn't. So, those of us who believe in this kind of universe invariably succumb to the Purpose Delusion. But logically speaking, there can be no objective, absolute purpose in this kind of universe. And quite frankly and sadly, the state of the world accurately reflects this truth.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Oh...is that why you asked me to name my life's purpose? So you can point out to me the logical flaws in it? Where did I say that I "love myself"; is that what you got from my prior post? I said that I try to improve myself if I can, in some small way, from day-to-day...does that imply to you that I am in love with myself?

If you want to go out and compete against others in order to "sharpen your skills"...do you expect me to try and talk you out of it? Go out and compete all you want...with all by blessing. But I am content to fight against the enemy within. To quote the legendary Lao Tzu: "He who conquers others is strong...but he who conquers himself is mighty indeed".

The point to the sports analogy was not to compete in life per se but to seek the best external standard possible to which you can compare yourself.

And I don't know what Mr. Tzu means by someone conquering himself. But I do know that if he meant change our essence, our nature, then I can tell you that's logically and spiritually impossible. That huge wall known as the Law of Identity stands in our way. Yes, we can reform bits and pieces of ourselves, but we cannot transform ourselves.

But I do find it interesting that you apparently see a dark side to yourself, don't you? You perceive the "enemy within"?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Sorry boxcar. I don't get that impression about Thaskalos at all.
He's a man genuinely searching for answers and perhaps that partly gives him purpose in life. I'm sure his son and caring for animals does as well.
I've always seen him as a pretty square shooter in various posts on this board.

I just drew my conclusions from what he wrote recently.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The point to the sports analogy was not to compete in life per se but to seek the best external standard possible to which you can compare yourself.

And I don't know what Mr. Tzu means by someone conquering himself. But I do know that if he meant change our essence, our nature, then I can tell you that's logically and spiritually impossible. That huge wall known as the Law of Identity stands in our way. Yes, we can reform bits and pieces of ourselves, but we cannot transform ourselves.

But I do find it interesting that you apparently see a dark side to yourself, don't you? You perceive the "enemy within"?

I don't feel that I have to compete with anyone in the external world, boxcar...because I don't feel that life is like a track and field race, where all the athletes line up along the same starting point. In life, some people get a head start, and others get left far behind early...through no fault of their own. Consequently, it's unwise to compete with others...IMO. You just try to do the best you can given your own life circumstances...and that has to be enough.

And, yes...I perceive an enemy within me....and this internal enemy is strong enough to have been my greatest obstacle in life. Look inside yourself...and you might be surprised to find out that he lives there too.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Look inside yourself...and you might be surprised to find out that he lives there too.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo (cartoon character of Walt Kelly's)

Kelly went on to say:

Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ridiculous, leading to a certain amount of self-conscious expostulation and the desire to join battle. There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blasts on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. Forward!

— Walt Kelly, June 1953

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I don't feel that I have to compete with anyone in the external world, boxcar...because I don't feel that life is like a track and field race, where all the athletes line up along the same starting point. In life, some people get a head start, and others get left far behind early...through no fault of their own. Consequently, it's unwise to compete with others...IMO. You just try to do the best you can given your own life circumstances...and that has to be enough.

And, yes...I perceive an enemy within me....and this internal enemy is strong enough to have been my greatest obstacle in life. Look inside yourself...and you might be surprised to find out that he lives there too.

You obviously missed the point to the analogy, which wasn't that we have to compete but rather, as in the sports world, we need a standard outside ourselves to objectively measure ourselves.

I know of the enemy you speak of very well -- probably better than you do, since the Christian life is marked by continous warfare with our corrupt nature. The only way to defeat it is to die to it -- but to that you must be in Christ.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo (cartoon character of Walt Kelly's)

Kelly went on to say:

Traces of nobility, gentleness and courage persist in all people, do what we will to stamp out the trend. So, too, do those characteristics which are ugly. It is just unfortunate that in the clumsy hands of a cartoonist all traits become ridiculous, leading to a certain amount of self-conscious expostulation and the desire to join battle. There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blasts on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us. Forward!

— Walt Kelly, June 1953

I wonder if this was Kelly's enemy:

Rom 7:7-25

7 [i]What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.[i]
ESV

The term translated "flesh" means sinful nature.