Religion III

[thaskalos]

People ask the question..."Do you believe in God, or are you an atheist?". That isn't the correct question to ask, IMO...because "believing in God" is a general, moderate term...while "being an atheist" is a specific extreme. The correct question to ask is..."are you a regular church-goer, or are you an atheist?"...so that BOTH sides could be somewhat extreme. And if the question were phrased in such a manner...I hazard to guess that the number of the regular church-goers might be even less than that of the atheists.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

People ask the question..."Do you believe in God, or are you an atheist?". That isn't the correct question to ask, IMO...because "believing in God" is a general, moderate term...while "being an atheist" is a specific extreme. The correct question to ask is..."are you a regular church-goer, or are you an atheist?"...so that BOTH sides could be somewhat extreme. And if the question were phrased in such a manner...I hazard to guess that the number of the regular church-goers might be even less than that of the atheists.

The original article I quoted was an articler which included those who answered none when asked about their religious affiliation.

There are now as many Americans who claim no religion as there are evangelicals and Catholics, a survey finds
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/us/no...rnd/index.html

A growing number of Americans reject organized religion. Many still may believe in god in some way.

"Religious nones," as they are called by researchers, are a diverse group made up of atheists, agnostics, the spiritual, and those who are no specific organized religion in particular. A rejection of organized religion is the common thread they share.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

I already said that I was aware of the Zuckerman stuff.
Like a matador you dodged the question I asked.
So let me simplify it in a more concrete way.

Would I be safer in a. a Nunnery or b. a Hells Angels biker bar?

Is the answer a. or is it b.?

Yes I ducked it for a very solid reason. My aim was to throw doubt on boxcar's unfounded total depravity nonsense.

Just like the Mueller report, I am presenting evidence for the people here to evaluate non-dogmatically

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by hcap

The original article I quoted was an articler which included those who answered none when asked about their religious affiliation.

There are now as many Americans who claim no religion as there are evangelicals and Catholics, a survey finds
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/us/no...rnd/index.html

A growing number of Americans reject organized religion. Many still may believe in god in some way.

"Religious nones," as they are called by researchers, are a diverse group made up of atheists, agnostics, the spiritual, and those who are no specific organized religion in particular. A rejection of organized religion is the common thread they share.

And my point is that many Christians have already rejected their organized religion...without even realizing it. The Greek Orthodox Christians that I know go to church for Christmas and Easter...they don't know what a confession or a communion is...and they don't know what the bible looks like. But if you tell them that they've turned their back on their church...then you'll become their enemy for life.

We are what we DO...not what we say.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And my point is that many Christians have already rejected their organized religion...without even realizing it. The Greek Orthodox Christians that I know go to church for Christmas and Easter...they don't know what a confession or a communion is...and they don't know what the bible looks like. But if you tell them that they've turned their back on their church...then you'll become their enemy for life.

We are what we DO...not what we say.

American Jews are more honest about rejecting organized Judaism.

However the Hasidim I worked for, had a peculiar twist. , they seem to alternate without hesitation between the pursuit of gelt and Dovining.

Was not clear if most understood what their religion was really all about, except for a few Rabbis I met. Taught me to withhold judgement of all in light of those few.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Yes I ducked it for a very solid reason. My aim was to throw doubt on boxcar's unfounded total depravity nonsense.

Just like the Mueller report, I am presenting evidence for the people here to evaluate non-dogmatically

You failed miserably because the doctrine does not speak to the Total Depravity in the qualitative sense.

Are you really considering manifesting more of your vast ocean of ignorance by failing to recognize the distinction between that which quantitative and qualitative, just as you cannot distinguish between events and time, and chronological and logical?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You failed miserably because the doctrine does not speak to the Total Depravity in the qualitative sense.

Are you really considering manifesting more of your vast ocean of ignorance by failing to recognize the distinction between that which quantitative and qualitative, just as you cannot distinguish between events and time, and chronological and logical?

I guess you can't count.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You failed miserably because the doctrine does not speak to the Total Depravity in the qualitative sense.

Are you really considering manifesting more of your vast ocean of ignorance by failing to recognize the distinction between that which quantitative and qualitative, just as you cannot distinguish between events and time, and chronological and logical?

Your doctrine is a failure to understand "what eating of the tree of knowledge" of good and evil means. This is why you talk religion to death.

If you bothered to study Zen, it might help.

[hcap]

Tree of Life versus the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

Knowledge and Being. From a student of the Fourth Way

The problem is that personality tends to develop at the expense of essence, or being. One is over developed, the other atrophied. Both knowledge and being are pictured as holy men by G.I. Gurdjieff.

One is grounded in memory and can use words, thought eloquently. It can communicate but does'nt penetrate the essence of things and often mistakes the word for the thing. It is entertaining, as words, concepts and images tend to be but doesn't leave a deep imprint on the listener. It is of the mind and and only speaks to the mind. The other doesn't define, judge and conclude but observes and notices the discreet, the subtle. He can penetrate the essence of things and can see, sense.

The "tree of life" is the "balance" needed to perceive oneself and the universe.
Intellect in it's place, not used to over analyze. Many popularized western religious ways lose this.

One cannot be a proficient artist, say a great musician without the "being" to play. The PRACTICE of religion requires Being. Knowledge alone doesn't cut it. However spiritual exercises abound.

Meditation and prayer are needed.

[hcap]

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Not just mind.

A spider met a centipede while hurrying down the street,
"How do you move at such a speed, with all so many feet?"
"I do not have to contemplate to keep them all in line,
But if I start to concentrate they're tangled all the time!"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Not just mind.

A spider met a centipede while hurrying down the street,
"How do you move at such a speed, with all so many feet?"
"I do not have to contemplate to keep them all in line,
But if I start to concentrate they're tangled all the time!"

Wow! What would the world do without such pearls of wisdom?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Your doctrine is a failure to understand "what eating of the tree of knowledge" of good and evil means. This is why you talk religion to death.

If you bothered to study Zen, it might help.

I study something infinitely mightier than Zen, thank you.

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

People ask the question..."Do you believe in God, or are you an atheist?"

Phrasing the question in that way is pejorative.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

People ask the question..."Do you believe in God, or are you an atheist?". That isn't the correct question to ask, IMO...because "believing in God" is a general, moderate term...while "being an atheist" is a specific extreme. The correct question to ask is..."are you a regular church-goer, or are you an atheist?"...so that BOTH sides could be somewhat extreme. And if the question were phrased in such a manner...I hazard to guess that the number of the regular church-goers might be even less than that of the atheists.

You're asking all the wrong questions. The question shouldn't be about "belief in God" but rather if one actually believes God. This is so because the foundation to all sin is disbelieving God. This is why scripture makes it a point, time and time again to, to tell us that only those who believe God have eternal life.

Also, on a practical level, all who don't believe God are atheists since they live their lives as though there is no God -- apart from the authority of God's Word. This is why hell will be filled with religious people on the outside (the Pharisees in the NT come immediately to mind) who were nonetheless were practicing atheists on the inside.

Finally, church attendance doesn't ultimately determine true spiritual status. The repentant thief on the cross didn't get much of a chance to attend synagogue or temple.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're asking all the wrong questions. The question shouldn't be about "belief in God" but rather if one actually believes God. This is so because the foundation to all sin is disbelieving God. This is why scripture makes it a point, time and time again to, to tell us that only those who believe God have eternal life.

Also, on a practical level, all who don't believe God are atheists since they live their lives as though there is no God -- apart from the authority of God's Word. This is why hell will be filled with religious people on the outside (the Pharisees in the NT come immediately to mind) who were nonetheless were practicing atheists on the inside.

Finally, church attendance doesn't ultimately determine true spiritual status. The repentant thief on the cross didn't get much of a chance to attend synagogue or temple.

The "repentant thief" never repented...and you know that. IMO...that was just a convenient fable added as an advertisement that Christianity could be packaged and sold. The Popes started selling sin-forgiveness certificates as a result of that story.