This doesn't sound good (for Servis and Navarro)

[clicknow]

Originally Posted by Suff

Racing universe is circling around the “good guys” like Graham Motion.

Christophe Clement is another good example. There are actually plenty more.

Many are the little guys with little barns who work day in and day out who are really more hurt by the cheaters than anyone else. Big barns have more horses and win some that allows them to sustain.....the little guys are really more hurt by the cheaters.

Getting rid of the bad guys, whether big or little should be the target. So I disagree with your baby out with the bathwater idea.

[jay68802]

One of the companys mentioned in the indictments was also mentioned here in 2016. The sports disenterest in doing anything is amazing.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...ely-unchecked/

[JustRalph]

Good post

[big frank]

Originally Posted by ctownraces@bp

Look at who ever trains for Robert Cole Jr. great example in my book. David Wells Kevin Patterson always speed. Always have thought Cole was one of the biggest druggers in racing not facts just my opinion. Look at his numbers.

Perfect example indeed ! this guy has been juicing for years with several trainers....When Lake was in his prime drugging days --Cole was his big client ! To be honest for years i have paid more attention to the owners when it comes to the drug factor........ I caught some huge longshots in ny when James Ferraro was training only 3 or 4 for a big drug owner........and they won off the claim a few times at big odds....nobody was paying attention to who the owner was and was going by the 5 percent Ferraro had off the claim.........was short lived but i would not be shocked if it happened again.....Anyone remember the magic Joe Parker was performing last winter ??? guess he forgot how to train in 9 months ?

[Appy]

Originally Posted by clicknow

You are correct, that model won't work here as presently constituted and even when not as presently constituted...... too many things are ENTIRELY different and will remain so.

But there are a few things we could look at. There are always some good idea that can be taken away from other systems.

No claiming races for instance, for me, would be a good thing. That is JMHO.


IF somebody prefers the Hong Kong model then my suggestion is to play there. Importing that system to here is not going to work here at all. It's really such an entirely different model.

Claiming races is one of the very few options in racing that make it possible for those who are not rich to participate as players in the sport.
Eliminating claiming conditions would be tantamount to declaring that only North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas can compete for the title in the NCAA basketball tournament, or that if you are not a white male you have no vote, or that if you happen to be an owner you can only place your horse with a trainer selected by some track official. Claiming conditions are the lifeblood of American horse racing as a viable sport for the public at large.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

.....................................





I don't think it's even possible to clean up the sport

because of technology synthetic drugs can be manufactured that mimic the effects of the original drugs

there are no tests for these drugs and when there are they will simply manufacture a slightly different version that no test has been developed to detect

this is similar to what has happened with street drugs that druggies use to get high

I can't be cleaned up until we stop calling it a sport. It is not a sport,. Is not remotely close to a sport. or is it a game. It is a business, a gambling business, Period.

Racing needs to be treated just like Las Vegas, every bit as strict, every bit as secure. Uniform rules, uniform penalties, plenty of third party oversight.

Those who participate in the business cannot be involved in the regulation of it.

[GMB@BP]

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

Greg, I realize you've become incredibly bitter, and I'm sorry for that, but this is BS. Horseplayers have an absolute right to play on a level playing field, and whether or not we "knew" something was going on, does not mean we weren't wronged.

Many players bet multi-race bets. How about the Pick-4s and/or Pick-5s we have all hit that included a Servis 4:5 shot, but while we cashed for ( say ) $500, we also had the 12:1 shot that ran second to that horse, and we might have won $4K had that horse not been effectively cheated out of a win. I suppose, according to you, that's our fault. Well, I have news for you....it's not.

Most don't actually cheat, despite what you ( or anyone ) thinks. Some have, and probably some still do ( though I am guessing a lot of them are starting to think twice going forward ), but stop condemning an entire group because of the dishonest actions of some.

[Suff]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

You know who I have little time sympathizing with? Horseplayers complaining that they were somehow wronged or duped. People who were new to the track, sure. People on this board, not so much. Everyone knew these guys were cheats, if you bet into the races that they were in then you have no room to complain that you were wronged. Racing was wronged, not experienced horse players.

I think most cheat so I dont bet much anymore. Certainly nothing close (maybe 5% of what I used to). This indictment was just confirmation of what everyone knew.

I’m going to the Gulfstream friday. I ENJOY IT. As far as gamble-gamble? Not a chance. I play horses for amusement. Tiny money.

[acorn54]

i am with tom on this one. tom is right, there is a conflict of interest, definitely.
with publicly traded companies you have an outside agency,(sec), watching over the hen house. and to check the legitimacy of the record keeping you have independent auditors who come in and audit the books and give their unqualified/qualified opininion. the financial records are available for public perusal.
that's what is needed transparency and accountancy, and swift enforcement of violations of standards.

[spiketoo]

Originally Posted by Tom

Those who participate in the business cannot be involved in the regulation of it.

Oh yeah? Well, the director of regulatory and scientific affairs at the North American Meat Institute (just love that name) thinks otherwise - "It's always great to have options!"

USDA Offers Pork Companies A New Inspection Plan

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...rk-is-produced

[Lono]

What does this do too the Fig makers and Handicappers who sell info? Did they know the game wasn't on the up and up? If they did know why are they allowed to keep selling theirs products in a fixed game? is this a carnival?
WHAT ABOUT THE BETTORS? As usual no one cares.
Thru all this the bettors were only mentioned once in all the articles I read. I've been betting horses since 1965, the end is not near the END is here, screw you horse racing.
If you are STUPID enough to think this is only Servis and the Big Mouth you deserve what you get if you keep supporting this Corrupt Sport.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Appy

Claiming races is one of the very few options in racing that make it possible for those who are not rich to participate as players in the sport.
Eliminating claiming conditions would be tantamount to declaring that only North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, and Kansas can compete for the title in the NCAA basketball tournament, or that if you are not a white male you have no vote, or that if you happen to be an owner you can only place your horse with a trainer selected by some track official. Claiming conditions are the lifeblood of American horse racing as a viable sport for the public at large.

Horses don't have to be bought through the claim box. If those races go away, horses will still be sold, but now they could be examined by they buyer's vet before the sale.

The claiming game has become similar to flipping houses except the houses are living creatures that deserve better. There was a time it was fine, but things like eliminating jail time and skewed claiming tag to purse ratios have ruined it. Claiming races were the best betting races when I started in the sport 35 years ago. Now they are the worst IMO.

[dilanesp]

I would caution everyone who is immediately declaring who the "good guys" are.

In track and field, we heard for years about how Carl Lewis and several other people (often American athletes- the media portrayed PED's as a "foreign" problem, and still does) were the "good guys". It turned out Carl Lewis was the Justify of track and field- he was caught doping in the 1984 Olympic Trials and they suppressed the test. His quest to equal Jesse Owens with 4 gold medals at the (eastern bloc boycotted) 1984 Olympics was too important to track and field.

In baseball, we also heard for years about how Alex Rodriguez was clean as opposed to those "dirty" players like McGwire and Canseco and Bonds. Rodriguez turned out to be a big time doper.

My point is not to impugn any specific person, but rather to say that human nature wants to divide the world into good guys and bad guys, when what really happens is once you find out your competitors are doping, there's immense pressure to dope as well. Ben Johnson was disqualified from the 1988 Seoul Olympics 100 meters; it turned out of the 9 starters in the race, 8 of them were proven to be dopers. Johnson was just the one to get caught in a post-race test.

It is most likely the case in horse racing that the vast majority of successful trainers are dopers. That's how these things work. That's how it worked in track and field, that's how it worked in cycling, that's how it worked in baseball. There are no "good guys".

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I would caution everyone who is immediately declaring who the "good guys" are.

You watch how their horses perform when they move to new trainers.