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View Poll Results: Would the 15% - 30% takeout solution work? Multiple choice
Yes, it would work 0 0%
No, it wouldn't work 24 72.73%
I'm willing to give it a try 9 27.27%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 33. This poll is closed

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Old 09-12-2017, 06:37 PM   #16
Andy Asaro
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This is a theory. Most people would change the way they play to take advantage of the lower WPS and Exacta Takeout. My suggestion would be 12% take for both. The status quo isn't working and blended take is going up. This whole thing was brought about by Keeneland raising WPS take to 17.5% or whatever it is.

Just about everyone agrees that lower takeout for all is preferable to large rebates for some so this is a first step to see what would happen. Very little risk for whoever tries it IMO

Last edited by Andy Asaro; 09-12-2017 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:52 PM   #17
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This is a theory. Most people would change the way they play to take advantage of the lower WPS and Exacta Takeout. My suggestion would be 12% take for both. The status quo isn't working and blended take is going up. This whole thing was brought about by Keeneland raising WPS take to 17.5% or whatever it is.

Just about everyone agrees that lower takeout for all is preferable to large rebates for some so this is a first step to see what would happen. Very little risk for whoever tries it IMO
Do you really believe that some smart young gambler would be attracted to win betting given the drastic odds movements with last second betting? That bet doesn't ooze with that come hither look required to lure the new players.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:20 PM   #18
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Do you really believe that some smart young gambler would be attracted to win betting given the drastic odds movements with last second betting? That bet doesn't ooze with that come hither look required to lure the new players.
It's about a program sponsored by Americas Best Racing/Jockey Club/Industry that teaches people to start with WPS and Exactas. Say a $1 three horse exacta box and bet the longest shot WPS. The only way for them to learn to read PP's and handicap (for the fullest experience IMO) is by concentrating on those wagers. Smart and young gamblers aren't gonna get within a hundred miles of horse racing unless the rebates are Xtra-large.

Give me a solution that's not a perfect world scenario because it's not gonna happen but some kind of solution that doesn't always end up with the status quo.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:22 PM   #19
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Wrong but Right

From the article:
"The math that follows is easy enough for me to understand: If you bet a million dollars a year, thoughtfully arbitrage your bets to break even, and get 8-to-10% on your money in the form of a rebate, that kind of return can support a family, even at today’s prices. But that $80,000 to $100,000 is made at the expense of powerless rank-and-file players who can wager $500 per session and at the end of the day collect the dollar equivalent of bangles and beads."

The rebate $ come from the pockets of the simulcast providers. Not one cent of the $80-100k noted is taken from other horseplayers......however, anyone who wins or loses less than the takeout does reduce the parimutuel payoffs.
Here is quick example: Consider exacta pool of 300k with 20% takeout. Say $10k is bet on winner; it pays $48. Now suppose a big bettor (or multiple bettors) put $60k into race (not far fectched b/c many in industry say the whales account for 25% of handle). They have $2400 on winner. It now pays $46.40. The rebate players lose $4320, but with a 10% rebate show a profit on race. Everyone else who hits the number loses $1.60 per two dollar winner.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:52 PM   #20
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It's about a program sponsored by Americas Best Racing/Jockey Club/Industry that teaches people to start with WPS and Exactas. Say a $1 three horse exacta box and bet the longest shot WPS. The only way for them to learn to read PP's and handicap (for the fullest experience IMO) is by concentrating on those wagers. Smart and young gamblers aren't gonna get within a hundred miles of horse racing unless the rebates are Xtra-large.

So are you suggesting to go after all other bettors not smart and young? Most people that I have met through racing have been quite intelligent. Racing is not push a button, pick a color, throw some dice gambling. Staying power requires intellectual curiosity to try and figure out the puzzle of each race.
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Old 09-12-2017, 07:57 PM   #21
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So are you suggesting to go after all other bettors not smart and young? Most people that I have met through racing have been quite intelligent. Racing is not push a button, pick a color, throw some dice gambling. Staying power requires intellectual curiosity to try and figure out the puzzle of each race.
Start offering some solutions. It's easy to knock everything down without offering anything of your own. The Industry is full of people telling everyone what they can't do. Take a shot at it.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:16 PM   #22
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I think ~10% is the magic number that would cause a large enough increase in handle to actually generate increased bottom line for the tracks. I say that because I think a lot of players can outperform the take, but not by enough to become winners. At ~10% a lot more people would win. We need more winners. If the game was seen as very beatable, a flood of NEW money would come in just like it did with poker. It wouldn't just be greater churn of the same money. The problem is getting a track to take that risk because in the short term they'd get increased handle, but probably take a bath on the bottom line for awhile.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:34 PM   #23
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What is on the taple

I never visit casinos, but if I were to visit, I'd play the games with the lowest house edge, Craps, Blackjack & Baccarat. All have an edge of 2% or less. I'd never play the Wheel of Fortune that has a 25% edge.
There are 11 tracks that have a win takeout of 16% or less. The NY tracks have 16% on the win end and a exacta take out of 18.5 and Suf is 19%.
Dmr,Sa & GG all have a 15.43 win take out.
Wo has a win (not place or show) take out of 14.95%.
Hastings is 15% on the win end.
Med is 15% for all bets.

OK right now these are the tracks offering the best deals. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on these tracks & ignore the others?
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:38 PM   #24
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I never visit casinos, but if I were to visit, I'd play the games with the lowest house edge, Craps, Blackjack & Baccarat. All have an edge of 2% or less. I'd never play the Wheel of Fortune that has a 25% edge.
There are 11 tracks that have a win takeout of 16% or less. The NY tracks have 16% on the win end and a exacta take out of 18.5 and Suf is 19%.
Dmr,Sa & GG all have a 15.43 win take out.
Wo has a win (not place or show) take out of 14.95%.
Hastings is 15% on the win end.
Med is 15% for all bets.

OK right now these are the tracks offering the best deals. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on these tracks & ignore the others?
It's becoming nuts. We have all these different tracks offering certain wages that might be attractive and then we have all these ADW's with their promo's. We should have an option to print a DRF race card with all the best bets of the day and not just one card.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:43 PM   #25
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Start offering some solutions. It's easy to knock everything down without offering anything of your own. The Industry is full of people telling everyone what they can't do. Take a shot at it.
Solutions? I am not sure anybody has solutions. I have suggested fully embracing exchange wagering. Would that heal all of racing's problems? Hardly, but it might provide a betting platform that is palatable to young intelligent gamblers.

We need more people telling the industry what they can't or shouldn't do! When I am told by people in the industry that bettors prefer a jackpot P-6 or that they don't mind higher takeout. I think, how could that be?

I spent a lot of time and energy offering suggestions through my time on the NTRA Players Panel. The effect the panel had on the racing industry did not leave me with high hopes. My pessimism and negativity do not come without battle scars.
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Old 09-12-2017, 08:47 PM   #26
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Solutions? I am not sure anybody has solutions. I have suggested fully embracing exchange wagering. Would that heal all of racing's problems? Hardly, but it might provide a betting platform that is palatable to young intelligent gamblers.

We need more people telling the industry what they can't or shouldn't do! When I am told by people in the industry that bettors prefer a jackpot P-6 or that they don't mind higher takeout. I think, how could that be?

I spent a lot of time and energy offering suggestions through my time on the NTRA Players Panel. The effect the panel had on the racing industry did not leave me with high hopes. My pessimism and negativity do not come without battle scars.
Exchange wagering is good. Doesn't 12% take WPS and Exactas get you closer to that?

The only way you get positive things done for Gamblers is by force. The Industry would change in less than a month if we could knock down handle by 30% or more at a major track.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:01 PM   #27
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I think ~10% is the magic number that would cause a large enough increase in handle to actually generate increased bottom line for the tracks. I say that because I think a lot of players can outperform the take, but not by enough to become winners. At ~10% a lot more people would win. We need more winners. If the game was seen as very beatable, a flood of NEW money would come in just like it did with poker. It wouldn't just be greater churn of the same money. The problem is getting a track to take that risk because in the short term they'd get increased handle, but probably take a bath on the bottom line for awhile.
Well said, sir.

I might add that it is very important to have competitive (large?) fields. I believe that even at a 10% takeout, the kind of lopsided, small fields you see at FL, GG, Mnr, SA, etc., are unbeatable in the win pool. They are just to efficient and the odds a too well-reflective of a horse's probability of winning.

But, again, you said it perfectly!! "We need more winners. If the game was seen as very beatable, a flood of NEW money would come in just like it did with poker." In fact, I swear you stole the words from me lol.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:04 PM   #28
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Start offering some solutions. It's easy to knock everything down without offering anything of your own. The Industry is full of people telling everyone what they can't do. Take a shot at it.
You get kudos for supporting ideas for improving racing. Personally I think we're long past "growing handle" or "growing the sport", as that's only happening at a handful of venues now. Perhaps suggestions on retaining the quality of some of the meets, or improving the "betability" of racing while undergoing contraction is in order.

Many suggestions have been made in other threads, but most are in contradiction to the decision makers in the game. Outlawing race day meds would be the best thing for racing, based on how formful the game used to be, and how much more formful the higher levels of the sport are overseas.

Fewer race days, fewer races and even fewer pools would probably help. Do we really need to confuse the novice horseplayer with 7 or more wager types each race?

Locking the pools earlier. Would you be more inclined to bet on a race if you knew the pools were locked at least 2 minutes to post, and final odds displayed prior to the start?

Stricter enforcement of the rules. Would you be more inclined to bet at a track where jockeys are banned for life when using buzzers, or trainers are banned for life for repeated substance violations? Would you pay a higher takeout knowing the money would be used to monitor the pools more closely, and investigate the betting coups?

Inquiries and DQs. Would you be more inclined to bet at a track where the stewards have less influence/latitude on infractions, or even no influence as SRU's "pay the winners" attitude? Would you be more inclined to bet at a track where the jockey's infractions are dealt with post-race and are penalized heavily for unsafe or rough riding? (i.e., Hong Kong)

More details on equipment changes (tongue tie, bit type, etc.), racing intent, or changes to racing style - these are often announced and available to bettors overseas. Why not here?

In a world where competition for disposable income is ever increasing, the sport needs to improve its image, and IMHO some of these suggestions would help.

Last edited by Parkview_Pirate; 09-12-2017 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:07 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate View Post
You get kudos for supporting ideas for improving racing. Personally I think we're long past "growing handle" or "growing the sport, as that's only happening at a handful of venues now. Perhaps suggestions on retaining the quality of some of the meets, or improving the "betability" of racing while undergoing contraction is in order.

Many suggestions have been made in other threads, but most are in contradiction to the decision makers in the game. Outlawing race day meds would be the best thing for racing, based on how formful the game used to be, and how much more formful the higher levels of the sport are overseas.

Fewer race days, fewer races and even fewer pools would probably help. Do we really need to confuse the novice horseplayer with 7 or more wager types each race?

Locking the pools earlier. Would you be more inclined to bet on a race if you knew the pools were locked at least 2 minutes to post, and final odds displayed prior to the start?

Stricter enforcement of the rules. Would you be more inclined to bet at a track where jockeys are banned for life when using buzzers, or trainers are banned for life for repeated substance violations? Would you pay a higher takeout knowing the money would be used to monitor the pools more closely, and investigate the betting coups?

Inquiries and DQs. Would you be more inclined to bet at a track where the stewards have less influence/latitude on infractions, or even no influence as SRU's "pay the winners" attitude? Would you be more inclined to bet at a track where the jockey's infractions are dealt with post-race and are penalized heavily for unsafe or rough riding? (i.e., Hong Kong)

More details on equipment changes (tongue tie, bit type, etc.), racing intent, or changes to racing style - these are often announced and available to bettors overseas. Why not here?

In a world where competition for disposable income is ever increasing, the sport needs to improve its image, and IMHO some of these suggestions would help.
IMO it all comes down to how good a gamble it can be. The better the gamble the less problems people will have with the industry. People bet on cage fighting, boxing, football, and just about anything since the beginning of time. You can only believe you have a shot for so long without winning.
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:27 AM   #30
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The reason I dislike this is because I dislike the win bet as it stands now. Have not bet it since I lost access to Betfair as a Canadian. Give me win bet with exchange wagering or fixed odds and Im in.
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