Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

The worlds oldest ad hominem argument.

Very original of you. Besides, how do you know it's the world's oldest ad hominem argument? Or better yet, how do you know it's an ad hominem argument? How do you know it's not true of atheists?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Or better yet, how do you know it's an ad hominem argument?

It fits the definition.


Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

It fits the definition.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

Psalm 114:1 is not an adhominen attack on anyone, anymore than Jesus calling the rich man a "fool" for laying up treasure for himself and not being rich toward God (Mat 15:20-21). The term "fool" in scripture is used to connote serious moral deficiency; and is, therefore, rightly used of anyone who denies God in any way, shape or form. Take these verses as examples of a "fool" or "fools".

Prov 13:19
9 Desire realized is sweet to the soul,
But it is an abomination to fools to depart from evil.
NASB

And how many unbelievers here have done the following:

Prov 14:9
9 Fools mock at sin,
But among the upright there is good will.
NASB

And,

Prov 26:3
3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the back of fools.

And,

Eccl 5:4-5
4 When you make a vow to God, do not be late in paying it, for He takes no delight in fools. Pay what you vow!
NASB

And,

Eccl 7:9
9 Do not be eager in your heart to be angry,
For anger resides in the bosom of fools.
NASB

It is noteworthy that a large majority of the passages that talk about fools, their folly or their fate are found in the Wisdom Books of the bible. How ironic! For fools despise wisdom (understanding!) Look at the following contrasts.

Prov 12:15
5 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.
NASB

And lastly,

Prov 18:2
2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
NASB

So...when God said through his prophet that atheists are fools, he didn't say that to merely hurl a gratuitous insult at atheists or any other kind of God-denier but is stating a spiritual/moral fact and warning, lest atheists think they are wise in their own eyes, which they naturally think anyway; but scripture will not reinforce such self-deception.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Psalm 114:1 is not an adhominen attack on anyone, anymore than Jesus calling the rich man a "fool" for laying up treasure for himself and not being rich toward God (Mat 15:20-21). The term "fool" in scripture is used to connote serious moral deficiency; and is, therefore, rightly used of anyone who denies God in any way, shape or form. Take these verses as examples of a "fool" or "fools".

Prov 13:19
9 Desire realized is sweet to the soul,
But it is an abomination to fools to depart from evil.
NASB

And how many unbelievers here have done the following:

Prov 14:9
9 Fools mock at sin,
But among the upright there is good will.
NASB

And,

Prov 26:3
3 A whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the back of fools.

And,

Eccl 5:4-5
4 When you make a vow to God, do not be late in paying it, for He takes no delight in fools. Pay what you vow!
NASB

And,

Eccl 7:9
9 Do not be eager in your heart to be angry,
For anger resides in the bosom of fools.
NASB

It is noteworthy that a large majority of the passages that talk about fools, their folly or their fate are found in the Wisdom Books of the bible. How ironic! For fools despise wisdom (understanding!) Look at the following contrasts.

Prov 12:15
5 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
But a wise man is he who listens to counsel.
NASB

And lastly,

Prov 18:2
2 A fool does not delight in understanding,
But only in revealing his own mind.
NASB

So...when God said through his prophet that atheists are fools, he didn't say that to merely hurl a gratuitous insult at atheists or any other kind of God-denier but is stating a spiritual/moral fact and warning, lest atheists think they are wise in their own eyes, which they naturally think anyway; but scripture will not reinforce such self-deception.

Nice try, but your intent was obviously pejorative and you offered up this bit of ancient text because you obviously had no argument which addressed the substance of my post.

And you still have not given a straight answer to my question of whether you believe in schizophrenia or not.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yeah, I do read what I post and I'm total agreement with the conclusion insofar as discrimination but I do not agree with the conclusion that I should consider deviant sexual behavior as valid behavior. I'm even far more in agreement with what Jesus taught which is: I should love my neighbor as myself (which includes any homosexuals or lesbians I personally encounter); but he never taught that doing that involves tolerating, condoning, supporting, encouraging, celebrating or validating sinful behavior. You will not find one NT verse wherein Jesus did any of these things in loving people he encountered. In fact...what he did in love...was preach the gospel, warn them against continuing in sin and even told them to quit sinning!

I do not give a shit about whether you
"should consider "deviant" sexual behavior as valid behavior."

You are a despicable fundy and your specific sexual hang ups are obviously a problem for you that integers with rational thinking. Once again fundy, you proposed original sin was inherited through the mechanism of genes and suggested an "evil " gene.

Yhave been proven wrong by countless peer reviewed studies. Yo admitted observing that crazy pink elephant could not be observed.Therefore it is not science. Stop with the expert on everything bullshit.

Admit you were wrong, and shut up about your bigoted judgemental behavior.

Who cares?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by hcap

Where is the science in any of this?

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is none!

Scripture says that all men are sinners. Therefore, it matters not which sin(s) is/are the favorite of any given sinner or even how often a person sins. Sin is sin is sin. Sin is lawlessness. At it's very essence, all sin involves, not trusting God (a sin), not loving God (another sin) and not loving your neighbor (another sin). What makes you think that there must be specific characteristics for each kind of sin? Is there a homosexual gene? Another gene of deceitfulness? A different gene of sexual lust? A gene for sexual promiscuity? A gene for the love of money or material goods? A gene of pride? A gene of covetousness? A bigotry gene, etc., etc., etc? All these and much more are all sinful desires and/or behaviors.

THERE ARE NO EVIL GENES!!!! Practice saying that a few hundred times in front of the mirror each morning trying to remember you are no scientist.

Once again evilness can not be defined. You are lost in your mega-insane superstition of original sin, by far the most asswholeian religious doctrine ever devised by m an.

[hcap]

Boxcar claimed there was no scientific evidence that sexual orientation was affected by variations in genetic make up. And only his strange biblical beliefs are correct.

Bullshit!

Boxcar claimed there was an evil gene.

Bullshit!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Nice try, but your intent was obviously pejorative and you offered up this bit of ancient text because you obviously had no argument which addressed the substance of my post.

And you still have not given a straight answer to my question of whether you believe in schizophrenia or not.

Spiritual truth is not a pejorative.

And I believe in the spiritual definition of "insanity". This is why the NT speaks often to the state of mind believers have been given as a gift from God, and which should be cultivated. Is schizophrenia a mental disorder? Of course. And like all evil things in this world, it is a consequence of sin.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I do not give a shit about whether you
"should consider "deviant" sexual behavior as valid behavior."

You are a despicable fundy and your specific sexual hang ups are obviously a problem for you that integers with rational thinking. Once again fundy, you proposed original sin was inherited through the mechanism of genes and suggested an "evil " gene.

Yhave been proven wrong by countless peer reviewed studies. Yo admitted observing that crazy pink elephant could not be observed.Therefore it is not science. Stop with the expert on everything bullshit.

Admit you were wrong, and shut up about your bigoted judgemental behavior.

Who cares?

I guess to you, Jesus is even more despicable since he never tolerated sin, nor did he ever teach that his disciples should.

The "crazy pink elephant" cannot be observed because scientists don't know what to look for. If everyone has the "evil" gene, then in a real sense no one has it, since science cannot distinguish between that gene and "good" gene.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I guess to you, Jesus is even more despicable since he never tolerated sin, nor did he ever teach that his disciples should.

The "crazy pink elephant" cannot be observed because scientists don't know what to look for. If everyone has the "evil" gene, then in a real sense no one has it, since science cannot distinguish between that gene and "good" gene.

I have already explained observing traits and characteristics to you.

The biggest problem is you have no biological definition for evil. You think if it exists it is something like having a gene for eye color.
It is not. Please stop pretending to be rational and a scientist. You are neither.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I guess to you, Jesus is even more despicable since he never tolerated sin...

YOU, not Jesus, is intolerant of sin. Someone who is intolerant of sin does not hang out with sinners and eventually martyr himself because of sin. Jesus embraced sin as a natural human condition, and tried to show people the way the truth and the light. Jesus showed the way out of sin is not intolerance of it. Intolerance accomplishes nothing and creates hatred and bitterness. You don't even understand the ways of Jesus but assume he is as bigoted as yourself.

It is love that Jesus showed is the way. And when you have divine love, the concept of intolerance does not exist. But this is all above your understanding.

[boxcar]

The bible teaches that God, after the Fall of Adam and Eve, pronounced a curse upon the entire creation for their sin. There are four aspects to this curse. I will reveal each aspect and then show from Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it) how each aspect impacts our entire world each and every day of our lives. There is simply no escaping the grief of this world; however the very good news (gospel truth) is that Jesus became a "man of sorrows" becoming fully acquainted with grief (Isa 53:3), and in so doing shared in our grief in order to ultimately remove all sorrow from all creation, which will occur upon his return. Paradise was lost in the Garden but will be restored after this existing order of things is destroyed and all is created anew by Christ.

The First and Second Parts of the Curse

Gen 3:14-15
14 And the Lord God said to the serpent,

"Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly shall you go,
And dust shall you eat
All the days of your life;
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel."
NASB

The first thing we see is that the "serpent" that was formerly an animal who walked upright is destined to slither on his belly and eat dust all the days of his life. He is brought low to the ground which also symbolizes Satan's final destiny when he is finally brought to the lowest depths of hell (Isa 14:15).

But we should not overlook the fact that the text also teaches that all the animal kingdom fell under God's curse due to the entrance of sin into this world. The "cattle" and "beasts" did not escape the curse. This is how Paul could personify the entire creation telling us that it eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (the resurrected saints at the Second Coming) because it was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope -- that the creation itself will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Rom 8:18-25).

The second aspect to God's curse is paradoxically positive and negative -- the positive portion is theologically known as the protevangelium. This protevangelium is the gospel in a very condensed, kernel-like form; therefore, we should not be surprised that like the full blown gospel, there is good news and bad news contained therein. The negative or bad news is man is a helpless, hapless, hopeless sinner unable to help himself out of moral-spiritual condition. Men will never accept the good news that God has intervened on part of man to provide an eternal remedy for man's plight until he comes to accept the reality of the bad news.

The good news in the protevangelium is that God promised the Serpent that he was going to put enmity between the Woman and him (ultimately Satan) and between the Woman's seed and Satan's seed and that the time would come when the devil would bruise this promised seed "on the heel" (signifying a temporary, slight wound, relatively speaking) but the "seed" would deliver a fatal wound to the head of Satan when the seed bruises his head.

But the bad news portion of the above promise includes by extension all the Woman's seeds. All who believe in The Seed (the Messiah) are his brothers (Mat 12:48-49) and, therefore, Eve is their spiritual mother as well. Moreover, Satan has his own "seed" who are all unbelievers. (Jesus made this clear to the Pharisees, c.f. Jn 8:44). Therefore, this decreed enmity extends to these two seeds -- the seed(s) of the Woman and the seed(s) of the devil. And this is not a fanciful interpretation; for in the very next chapter of Genesis we see this decreed enmity of God put into play by Satan when he tempted Cain to murder Abel, no doubt believing that the latter was God's promised seed of the Woman. The first recorded war in human history is "religious" in nature -- or more accurately between someone who believed God and someone who did not! And this was just the beginning of wars -- the beginning of distrust among Adam and Eve's offspring. We have wars because human beings distrust one another and this condition will continue until the end of this age. All human history is marked with this distrust and the inevitable wars that logically flow from it. Our every day experiences bears witness to this universal distrust that exists in this world -- a distrust engendered by Satan from the beginning of time. (Was not the devil successful in getting Adam and Eve to distrust their creator?) This universal distrust is ingrained into all societies all over the world and is at the very deepest roots of all the chaos, instability, confusion, civil unrest, uneasiness, discord and fear in this world. The political right doesn't trust the left and the political left doesn't trust the right -- and this is true in all nations of this world.

As an interesting and informative aside, the Book of Revelation gives us an excellent behind-the-scenes overview of how Satan works in this world and how he uses human political and religious powers to stir unrest and dissension in this world. Revelation, in a real sense, picks up from where Genesis leaves off. If one believes the Genesis account of Creation and the Fall, he will stand a much better chance of making sense out of Revelation; for it is an organic and ongoing unveiling of Genesis that tells us how redemptive history will end.

The Third Part of the Curse

Gen 3:16

16 To the woman He said,

"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Yet your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."
NASB

To keep this post at a reasonable length, I'm only going to comment on one aspect of this part of the curse, namely Pain! In principle, Pain extends to all living things in this world! All God's creatures experience pain, suffering and sorrow. And we have Eve to thank for this.

The Fourth Aspect to the Curse

Gen 3:17-19
17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it';

Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you shall eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face
You shall eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return."
NASB

In principle, all creation (the entire earth and everything in it) has suffered from Adam's curse. Life is characterized by hardships, struggles, strife and uncertainty in this life -- and ultimately death!

But all is not completely dark in this world. Rays of Light do shine through to reveal this world's beauty. We are able to see both the kindness and severity of God in his dealings with the sons of men. But none of us can truly deny, no matter how hard we try, that this world is characterized by distrust, wars, chaos, confusion, unrest, instability, pain, suffering, sorrow, hardship, struggle, strife and ultimately death. And the bible succinctly and cogently tells us the why for all this. But if Genesis is all that we had, this would be a pretty depressing story. Thankfully, it is not. Revelation assures us that Good will triumph over Evil after God, through Christ, rescinds the curse and restores the Garden of Eden (and by extension the entire earth) at minimum to its former pristine glory -- probably making it even better!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

YOU, not Jesus, is intolerant of sin. Someone who is intolerant of sin does not hang out with sinners and eventually martyr himself because of sin. Jesus embraced sin as a natural human condition, and tried to show people the way the truth and the light. Jesus showed the way out of sin is not intolerance of it. Intolerance accomplishes nothing and creates hatred and bitterness. You don't even understand the ways of Jesus but assume he is as bigoted as yourself.

It is love that Jesus showed is the way. And when you have divine love, the concept of intolerance does not exist. But this is all above your understanding.

Of course, Jesus would "hang out" with sinners because he came to seek and to save SINNERS, i.e. people who realized they were sinners in need of salvation. Who would he hang out with: Self-righteous people like the religious leaders were? Jesus never came to call the self-righteous into his kingdom. But you will not find one verse where he tolerated sin or preached toleration of sin. Quite the contrary. He warned people sternly about remaining in their sin by not repenting of it, which is why he revealed more of Hell to us than all the other NT teachers together did in the bible!

By the way...Jesus was NO martyr. You have no idea why he willingly laid down his life. A martyr is someone who has his life taken from him. Peter was a martyr. Paul was a martyr. James was a martyr, etc. But none of these were in the same class of Jesus. Martyrs die for their faith. But Jesus was sent into this world to fulfill the eternal covenant made between Him and his Father by willingly laying down his own life specifically for his own sheep -- by fulfilling his preordained mission.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I have already explained observing traits and characteristics to you.

The biggest problem is you have no biological definition for evil. You think if it exists it is something like having a gene for eye color.
It is not. Please stop pretending to be rational and a scientist. You are neither.

You can only observe a thing if you know what you are looking for. Again...if my theory is correct and sin is genetically passed on from father to son, from mother to daughter in all human beings, etc., then what trait would you look for? Maybe sin is hidden in the eye color gene, or hair color gene or whatever. To find a sinless human being, therefore, you would have to find a someone with no eye color.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again...if my theory is correct and sin is genetically passed on

Your theory is nonsense.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.

You have NO theory, you are "hand waving".

Hand-waving - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-waving
Hand-waving (with various spellings) is a pejorative label for attempting to be seen as effective – in word, reasoning, or deed – while actually doing nothing effective or substantial. It is most often applied to debate techniques that involve fallacies, misdirection and the glossing over of details.

In engineering it often is applied to a half baked idea described by it's (half-baked) inventor saying, "I mean we make it like this" while wildly sketching figure 8's in the air not knowing anything at all about what he is talking about.

Half baked is super generous.