Gun Runner vs. Songbird

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

I do get the point. You said it was a strong field. It wasn't going in and certainly wasn't as we look at it now

How horses coming out of a race can tell us multiple things.

It can capture that a race was stronger or weaker than the official class designation/speed figure or it can capture RANDOM development or lack thereof that has nothing to do with the strength of the field at that time.

Songbird looked like a potential killer going into that race and Rachel's Valentina was 2 for 2 with a win in the Spinaway over Tap To It who also had a very impressive debut and was then 2nd to RV in the Spinaway. The top 2 ran 1-2 and the speed figure for the race was above PAR for the juvenile filly.

If the top few finishers in a race looked good going in, the race is faster than PAR, and it's formful, how can it be anything other than above average.

If you don't like the word "strong" because it's wasn't super deep, let's call it above average.

That Rachel's Valentina and Tap To It did not eventually develop into top 3yo fillies and had early retirements says more about their lack of development or possibly soundness than how good they were in that snapshot of time as very lightly raced 2yo fillies. They did not develop and were quickly retired. Had they had "standard" development you might have a different opinion about the strength of that race. That has been my point all along.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

All to avoid having to admit she's not an all timer. A very, very good filly that would get beaten soundly by the fillies I mentioned a month ago.

I'm not sure where this is coming from given that either earlier in this thread or another I was hammering home that so far this year she didn't look anywhere near as good as last year, let alone develop further, and was very likely to get beat by the fillies in CA. I think I even mentioned Forever Unbridled as someone that could move past her also.

The development theme I've been pounding on today is simply an explanation for why she was so highly regarded early on. She was well above average early on and it looked like there was more in the tank. People were projecting the normal improvement that would have made her an "all timer" if it occurred. That normal development did not come. She developed a small bit last year (which was still good enough to dominate her own division) and took a small step back this year.

To be honest, I don't think I've heard anyone call her an all time great filly. I bet against her with Forever Unbridled last year even though I was saying I thought she had a little more in the tank than she was showing (and I think she showed that in defeat)

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

To be honest, I don't think I've heard anyone call her an all time great filly.

no one ever has, its FAKE NEWS

I have no idea anyone that was claiming she was anything more than a very exceptional filly, obviously that has not been as good this year.

The hate, dont get it at all. That was my Zenyatta comment, that hate for her was real from a small but loud contingent.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

no one ever has, its FAKE NEWS

I have no idea anyone that was claiming she was anything more than a very exceptional filly, obviously that has not been as good this year.

The hate, dont get it at all. That was my Zenyatta comment, that hate for her was real from a small but loud contingent.

I agree.

I think it's the same phenomenon we are seeing in US politics now. People form opinions and then somehow get so emotionally tied to them it turns into venom towards the opposition with very few being able to see clearly (in his case about horses).

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

It could've been more enjoyable if you were there. Floating face down.

Mr. Internet

Wishing death on me? Because I disagree with you?



How's it feel to be my bitch?

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

no one ever has, its FAKE NEWS

I have no idea anyone that was claiming she was anything more than a very exceptional filly, obviously that has not been as good this year.

The hate, dont get it at all. That was my Zenyatta comment, that hate for her was real from a small but loud contingent.

Sad to see you resort to this stupidity. No one has ever said she was an all time filly? Really?

In this very thread Fager Fraud called him all time. Go on twitter...lots of people are.

No one hates her. Geez man....get a grip

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

no one ever has, its FAKE NEWS

I have no idea anyone that was claiming she was anything more than a very exceptional filly, obviously that has not been as good this year.

The hate, dont get it at all. That was my Zenyatta comment, that hate for her was real from a small but loud contingent.

No one's said it, at least not here.

As for the hate, just look at the source. He's in a fight with 4 different people here (or maybe more). He's just hateful.

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I think it's fair that to say she's a historic female. Don't know until the fat lady sings where she stacks up against the others, but always hated the comparison to Ruffian. No filly has come close to doing what Ruffian did.

But 9 G1 wins and winning 13 of 14 isn't easy regardless of competition. If it was, we'd have a lot more to do it because the competition is always light in one division or another every year. The competition for Arrogate isn't all that either. For him, it's how he's winning, not who he beat.

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

No one's said it, at least not here.

As for the hate, just look at the source. He's in a fight with 4 different people here (or maybe more). He's just hateful.

You said she was a historic female, no? Now who's playing semantics? All time great and historic are pretty similar, no?

Face it, there's a reason you don't bet. You're a little coward. Tough in front of your keyboard but a sissy in real life. Who watches workouts for a living but doesn't bet?

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

He's just hateful.

Says the coward that wished death on me

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

You said she was a historic female, no? Now who's playing semantics? All time great and historic are pretty similar, no?

She's a two-time champ. She's going into the HOF. That makes her historic. I can't help you can't understand something so elementary. I never used all-time, which means different in my book.

Face it, there's a reason you don't bet. You're a little coward. Tough in front of your keyboard but a sissy in real life. Who watches workouts for a living but doesn't bet?

Boy, that makes a lot of sense. Bravery is what makes one a gambler. Right. Is there a Non-Gambler's Anonymous that I've never heard about?

Do you really know so little about racing to not know for what reasons one would watch works that has zero to do with handicapping?

[Dahoss9698]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

She's a two-time champ. She's going into the HOF. That makes her historic. I can't help you can't understand something so elementary. I never used all-time, which means different in my book.



Boy, that makes a lot of sense. Bravery is what makes one a gambler. Right. Is there a Non-Gambler's Anonymous that I've never heard about?

Do you really know so little about racing to not know for what reasons one would watch works that has zero to do with handicapping?

If you had any confidence in your eye, you'd be able to make money when the horses run, no?

Face it....you're full of it. I knew it months ago and more than me do now.

[Dahoss9698]

Here's my guess....Fager Fraud was born on 3rd base but is convinced he hit a triple.

Daddy let's him pick out some horses for him and he thinks he's Steve Young because of it.

Did I mention he's a cowardly sissy?

[PaceAdvantage]

Dahoss, this was the post you were complaining about in another thread?

You present yourself as tougher than that, don't you?

You push people to the edge and then wonder why they don't like you?

You don't need me to help you out, and yet you blast me on another thread for letting someone "wish death" on you here....which is a little overboard if you ask me.

If you dish it out, you have to take it as well, don't you think?

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Dahoss, this was the post you were complaining about in another thread?

You present yourself as tougher than that, don't you?

You push people to the edge and then wonder why they don't like you?

You don't need me to help you out, and yet you blast me on another thread for letting someone "wish death" on you here....which is a little overboard if you ask me.

If you dish it out, you have to take it as well, don't you think?

I got a small board to manage. Can't compete with this! Mike let em have it! Best horse board of all time. Pretenders come on board to be shot down like clay pigeons!

[burnsy]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

This is how I see it. I dont get why some people were doing cartwheels when she lost to beholder and then yesterday. Its kinda like the Zenyatta thing all over again, except this horses campaign has been kinda out of this world difficult over her 3 seasons.

I did cartwheels the other day..............I bet a bunch on Forever Unbridled. I posted my selections, it was the only single of my day. Here's the thing, her last race was no where close to last years form and the other horse is razor sharp right now, Forever Unbridled went the over land route and still inhaled her foes for lunch.

I love the arguments about semantics.......best, historical, all time great and all the other garbage that has zero to do with betting.....and winning. One guy sits here fighting about it and admits he doesn't gamble......I wish he did . None of that crap wins horse races or money at the window. About 90% of it is hyperbole and exaggeration.

Tough campaign my ass, she ran against horses that really are not much until the Breeders Cup and then Saturday............0-2.

Zenyatta won and placed in one of the toughest races in the world at a classic distance.......night and day my friend.

People that engage in this "the best ever talk", usually need a good dose of perspective. Somehow, people that bet against these horses are branded "haters".....which is hilarious because in reality they are people that know how to cash a nice ticket from time to time.

That race was a 20 mph softball served up over the plate with a $6.20 return in a 4 horse field. While people bitch about whose the best ever and all the other crap......calling people "haters".....I just want to know who is going to be there at the wire. And this horse had "vulnerable" written all over it. I love the horse, doesn't mean I have to bet on her.