Religious

[PaceAdvantage]

Are you familiar with the prophecy? Again, I was raised Roman Catholic, but I by no means am close to a religious scholar nor anywhere near an expert on the Bible. That is why I ask what I assume to you and other more versed on these things...basic questions.

From what I know, the "prophecy" that foretold of the messiah has been cobbled together from a bunch of different prophets in the Torah...Old Testament...Hebrew Bible...whatever you want to call it...

So are you saying the Jews who believed Jesus to be their messiah interpreted this prophecy one way, while the Jews who believed otherwise interpreted the prophecy another way? Or did each group pick and choose which prophecies were more important than others to be fulfilled or unfulfilled?

To me, a prophecy as important as that of a messiah for the world should be pretty concrete and clear. It's either fulfilled or it is not.

And isn't all of life an intellectual exercise on some level? Even faith?

And you make a good point, that obviously some Jews did believe the prophecy was fulfilled, and they became Christians. That's a point I failed to consider in my prior reply.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Let me get this straight. You want hcap to apologize on behalf of all Jews for helping to fulfill your Christian prophecy and putting the finishing touch on the mechanism by which (according to your beliefs) your SOUL will be SAVED for all eternity?

Yeah, why not? We've been through this before. I know this is really hard for your mind to digest but....here it is once again: Prophecy does NOT EQUATE to a biblical injunction. Prophecy is not a command.

You shouldn't be asking him to apologize. You should be kissing his feet and thanking him profusely.

Why? Because his ancestors were murders?

That's the trouble with people like you. On the one hand, you talk about prophecy being fulfilled. You basically state that what happened to Christ was absolutely 100% destined to happen. For if it didn't, you would have no Messiah.

But, then when it does happen, your next step is to go around murdering the very people who had a hand in fulfilling the prophecy. And when you aren't murdering them or making their lives miserable, you are asking them to apologize....

Don't bang too hard. You already cannot understand the difference between prophecy and an injunction. Such is the depth to your spiritual blindness...

This is why I said earlier that religion has, on balance, done much more harm than good for the world. And I hold all religions in contempt when I say this.

In fact, as far as I can tell, JUDAISM, ironically, appears to be the "cleanest" of the religions as far as the guilt of horrendous persecution and murderous rampages being carried out in its name goes.

Well, if you're going to talk about "cleanest" -- to the best of my recollection, it was Pontius Pilate to tried to wash the guilt off his hands when he sentenced Jesus. Not the Jews.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why? Because his ancestors were murders?

My hunch is your ancestors have far more blood on their hands.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

But I wasn't questioning whether Jesus existed or not. Most historians agree that Jesus, the man, actually existed. He is not a myth.

It is interesting that you left out the part in at least one version of the Talmud (or maybe it was multiple versions), where Jesus is possibly referenced, that they talk about him being stoned and hanged...not crucified...that's quite a contradiction...why do you think that would be altered?

(emphasis mine)

Are you satisfied with the "answer" Show me gave regarding the emphasized portion?

And isn't the reason why Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah precisely because Jesus did NOT fulfill the prophecy as spelled out by the very Jews whose beliefs gave us the prophecy in the first place? It's the prophecy of the Jewish people, is it not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus

You Google Wiki, as if this worldly, ungodly source has any spiritual answers? Instead Google Messianic prophecies and go to some Christian sites. You could even go to Jews for Jesus.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Well, if you're going to talk about "cleanest" -- to the best of my recollection, it was Pontius Pilate to tried to wash the guilt off his hands when he sentenced Jesus. Not the Jews.

Boxcar

That fact that the washing of his hands actually counts for something in your mind speaks volumes.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

(emphasis mine)

Are you satisfied with the "answer" Show me gave regarding the emphasized portion?

You emphasized the portion where I write some Talmud experts believe it is written that Jesus was stoned and/or hanged. I then ask why they would get such an important fact wrong...deliberately...

I guess the piercing of the hands and feet fulfills a prophecy the writers of the Talmud were seeking to discount?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

My hunch is your ancestors have far more blood on their hands.

I don't know if any of my ancestors (according to the flesh) were Christians or not. But we do know that Hcap's ancestors (according to the flesh) murdered Jesus Christ by unjustly delivering him up to the Gentiles, which was the greatest crime ever committed in this world. And don't forget: All Jews descend from that "mythical character" Abraham. The Pharisees even boasted of this!

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I don't know if any of my ancestors (according to the flesh) were Christians or not. But we do know that Hcap's ancestors (according to the flesh) murdered Jesus Christ by unjustly delivering him up to the Gentiles, which was the greatest crime ever committed in this world. And don't forget: All Jews descend from that "mythical character" Abraham. The Pharisees even boasted of this!

Boxcar

Unjustly? By the law of the day, apparently, it was NOT unjust.

Blasphemy was a very serious crime back then, or don't you know?

Are you out there apologizing for all the supposed "witches" your ancestors burned alive? We'll set all the persecuted and murdered Jews aside for the moment, and first touch on the "minor" massacres in the name of Christianity.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

That fact that the washing of his hands actually counts for something in your mind speaks volumes.

.

Was not the vain symbolic act by Pilate still far more than the Jews did to extricate themselves from guilt!? You see -- Pilate knew he was sentencing an innocent man. Also, it is written:

John 19:11
11 Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin."
NASB

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

.

Was not the vain symbolic act by Pilate still far more than the Jews did to extricate themselves from guilt!? You see -- Pilate knew he was sentencing an innocent man.

Why should Jews apologize? As far as they are concerned, they did nothing more than burn a witch at the stake...just like your ancestors did many, many, many times.

They don't consider Jesus the messiah, so if you're not going to apologize to the "witches," they shouldn't have to apologize for Jesus.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Unjustly? By the law of the day, apparently, it was NOT unjust.

Blasphemy was a very serious crime back then, or don't you know?

Are you out there apologize for all the supposed "witches" your ancestors burned alive? We'll set all the persecuted and murdered Jews aside for the moment, and first touch on the "minor" massacres in the name of Christianity.

How could the Son of God blaspheme? He was the very God of God. God in the flesh!

And again, I don't know if any of my ancestors were Christians or if any burned witches whether they were or weren't. But we do know from scripture that the Jews unjustly delivered up Jesus to the Gentiles.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You emphasized the portion where I write some Talmud experts believe it is written that Jesus was stoned and/or hanged. I then ask why they would get such an important fact wrong...deliberately...

I guess the piercing of the hands and feet fulfills a prophecy the writers of the Talmud were seeking to discount?

Nah...not likely.

Boxcar

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How could the Son of God blaspheme? He was the very God of God. God in the flesh!

You aren't a stupid man. So it must be something else.

Jews don't believe he was the son of God...the God of God...God in the flesh. Therefore, they have nothing to apologize for, anymore than Christians need to apologize for burning someone at the stake because she had a wart on her nose.

[yt=""]yp_l5ntikaU[/yt]

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Are you familiar with the prophecy? Again, I was raised Roman Catholic, but I by no means am close to a religious scholar nor anywhere near an expert on the Bible. That is why I ask what I assume to you and other more versed on these things...basic questions.

From what I know, the "prophecy" that foretold of the messiah has been cobbled together from a bunch of different prophets in the Torah...Old Testament...Hebrew Bible...whatever you want to call it...

So are you saying the Jews who believed Jesus to be their messiah interpreted this prophecy one way, while the Jews who believed otherwise interpreted the prophecy another way? Or did each group pick and choose which prophecies were more important than others to be fulfilled or unfulfilled?

To me, a prophecy as important as that of a messiah for the world should be pretty concrete and clear. It's either fulfilled or it is not.

And isn't all of life an intellectual exercise on some level? Even faith?

And you make a good point, that obviously some Jews did believe the prophecy was fulfilled, and they became Christians. That's a point I failed to consider in my prior reply.

First, yes Jews had different sects, some believed in reincarnation, resurrection of the dead, some believed there was no life after death, some believed in hell and some did not. I could not tell you if certain sects emphasized certain prophecies.

You are correct the prophecies are spread throughout the O.T.

As far as prophecies, the first was in Genesis when God stated he would put enmity between the seed of the woman and the serpent's seed. Read Acts 2 where Peter tied the prophecy of Joel to Jesus as the Messiah. Isaiah is another important source of the prophecy of the Messiah which is cited throughout the N.T. Isaiah contains 30 plus prophecies that have been applied to Jesus as the Messiah.

For example:

Will be spat on and struck (Isaiah 50:6) Was spat on and beaten (Matthew 26:67)

Will make a blood atonement (Isaiah 53:5) Shed His blood to atone for our sins (1Peter 1:2)

Will be widely rejected (Isaiah 53:1,3) Was not accepted by many (John 12:37, 38)

Will be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7) Was silent before Herod and his court (Luke 23:9)

Will be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9) Was buried in the tomb of Joseph, a rich man from Arimathea (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42)

There are more but you get the idea.

Additionally, Matthew describes many other prophets' prophecies fulfilled for example:

Matthew 21:4 – On Sunday morning of the Passion week, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey, thus demonstrating his humble station as a soon-to-be-inaugurated king over his spiritual kingdom. Matthew states that this happened “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet” (Zechariah 9:9).

Matthew 2:15 – When Herod had ambitions to murder baby Jesus, Joseph was warned to take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt until such a time as it was safe to return to Canaan. Joseph followed the instruction. He remained there until Herod’s death “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through his prophet, saying, ‘Out of Egypt did I call my son.’” The quotation was from Hosea 11:1.

again there are many more.

Regarding faith. Yes you can make faith an intellectual exercise, like a prominent poster here. Faith should be based on trust and hope.

11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Faith is based on hope for the evidence of things not seen. You cannot intellectualize things that are not seen, meaning you have no natural knowledge based on your physical senses. Natural knowledge and scientific knowledge is based on the perception by your senses.

That is why the Bible states you need the faith of a child. You are to believe without rationalizing.

[Show Me the Wire]

Let me get this straight. You want hcap to apologize on behalf of all Jews for helping to fulfill your Christian prophecy and putting the finishing touch on the mechanism by which (according to your beliefs) your SOUL will be SAVED for all eternity?

You shouldn't be asking him to apologize. You should be kissing his feet and thanking him profusely.

PA this thought is a perfect example of intellectualizing faith. No one Killed Jesus. The Romans did not kill Jesus and neither did the Jews, on the whole. Jesus laid down his life, as no one can kill God, so that he could take it up again.

According to Scripture, all humanity is guilty for Jesus laying down his life as Jesus died for the sins of the world (humanity). If one was to subscribed to the theology of Jesus dying for a specif group, the elect. Then the elect bears the guilt and not the Romans or Jews for Jesus laying down his life to atone for the specific group and their sins.

The Jews, on the whole, are not guilty or worthy of praise as the praise belongs to God for the sacrifice.