Religion III

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

2. How can any Jew today be saved since there are no blood sacrifices due to the events of 70 A.D. -- sacrifices that are COMMANDED in the Law of Moses for the atonement of sins?

https://outreachjudaism.org/sin-and-atonement/

In the eighteenth chapter of Ezekiel, the prophet was teaching his people a fundamental Biblical principle: A righteous person cannot die vicariously for the sins of the wicked. This alien notion was condemned by Ezekiel. He taught that the belief that the innocent can suffer to atone for the sins of the wicked is pagan, and was to be purged from the mind of the Jewish people. This core tenet of Judaism is conveyed explicitly throughout the eighteenth chapter of the Book of Ezekiel. In verses 18:20-23, the prophet declares that true repentance alone washes the penitent clean of all iniquities; every one of his sins are forgiven in Heaven. This chapter is so clear and unambiguous, there can be no other reading of these passages. Blood-sacrifices or the veneration of a crucified messiah are not mentioned or even hinted throughout Ezekiel’s thorough and inspiring discourse on sin and atonement.

Ezekiel’s teaching is not novel. The Jewish people were warned throughout the Torah never to offer human sacrifices. When Moses offered to have his name removed from the Torah in exchange for the sin that the Jewish people had committed with the Golden Calf, the Almighty abruptly refused Moses’ offer.3 Moses, who was righteous with regard to the golden calf, could not suffer vicariously for the sin of the nation. Rather, only the soul that sinned would endure judgment.

As Ezekiel explains chapters later,

Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’ 12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, ‘The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.’” (Ezekiel 33:11-12)

That's how Jews are saved today.

[PaceAdvantage]

The Law of Moses and the New Covenant.

YouTube

more good stuff

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

https://outreachjudaism.org/sin-and-atonement/

That's how Jews are saved today.

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

https://outreachjudaism.org/sin-and-atonement/

That's how Jews are saved today.

Nope. The Law of Moses required blood sacrifices, as well as true repentance. So...your interpretation of Ezekiel creates a contradiction. What in the world do you think the God-ordained temple in Jerusalem and the God-ordained Levitical Priestfhood were all about if not making atonement for sins via blood sacrifices!?

Secondly, while sinful people could not offer up another sinful person as a vicarious sacrifice for sin, this does not preclude the option that God himself could not atone for the sins of his people in his only begotten Son Jesus, since the sacrifice required had to be perfect in every respect. Jesus alone qualified since he was perfectly righteous, never knowing sin. Read carefully these two texts in the Psalms:

Ps 65:1-3
1 Praise is due to you, O God, in Zion,
and to you shall vows be performed.
2 O you who hears prayer,
to you shall all flesh come.
3 When iniquities prevail against me,
you atone for our transgressions.
ESV

And,

Ps 79:9
9 Help us, O God of our salvation,
for the glory of your name;
deliver us, and atone for our sins,
for your name's sake!
ESV

And then we have this from your most recent favorite OT prophet Ezekiel. Read this passage very slowly and carefully, for it also speaks to a future everlasting covenant that God would make with Israel. The only everlasting covenant in all scripture is the eternal New Covenant.

Ezek 16:59-63
59 "For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, [b]and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant[b]. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the Lord, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God."
ESV

First, this "everlasting covenant" which the Lord promised to make with Israel in the future can only be the New Covenant, since this is the only covenant promised after the Mosaic Covenant.

Secondly, you need to explain how God, who is pure spirit, can make blood atonement for the sins of his people! How can God bleed!? How can he shed blood? And in case you're wondering, there is no such thing anywhere in the OT or NT as a bloodless sacrifice -- a bloodless atonement. As the writer of Hebrews correctly stated, "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins". And previously, I quoted several texts in Leviticus from the Law of Moses that specifically require blood sacrifices.

Thirdly, the ritual of atonement does not at all preclude the moral responsibility of sinners to constantly live a life of repentance. All believers throughout the old and this new dispensation were always required to live such a life!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

The Law of Moses and the New Covenant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-77-nXlpSU

more good stuff

The only "good stuff" I want to read are specific answers to my five questions.

[PaceAdvantage]

A righteous person cannot die vicariously for the sins of the wicked.

This is the word of God.

[PaceAdvantage]

Deuteronomy 4:27

וְהֵפִ֧יץ יְהוָ֛ה אֶתְכֶ֖ם בָּעַמִּ֑ים וְנִשְׁאַרְתֶּם֙ מְתֵ֣י מִסְפָּ֔ר בַּגּוֹיִ֕ם אֲשֶׁ֨ר יְנַהֵ֧ג יְהוָ֛ה אֶתְכֶ֖ם שָֽׁמָּה׃
The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a scant few of you shall be left among the nations to which the LORD will drive you.

[thaskalos]

So much conversation, about a "Lord" who doesn't exist.

It reminds me of the movie "The Man Who Wasn't There".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Ive answered these questions previously.

If I build a house then the house come into existence. Right?

If the house burns down then it goes out of existence. Right?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Sure there is. It's in scripture.

Which proves nothing!

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

So much conversation, about a "Lord" who doesn't exist.

It reminds me of the movie "The Man Who Wasn't There".

There is no winner in this argument...

Except Father Time.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

There is no winner in this argument...

Except Father Time.

Luckily...we are just a bunch of bored old men with nothing better to do.

[Cuffdaddy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

So much conversation, about a "Lord" who doesn't exist.

It reminds me of the movie "The Man Who Wasn't There".

We will all get the answer at some point.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

A righteous person cannot die vicariously for the sins of the wicked.

This is the word of God.

Yes, an inherently righteous person can indeed die for the sins of the wicked, which of course would necessarily exclude all mere mortals, since "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". How else could God have atoned for the sins of his people? This is precisely why Moses was prohibited from atoning for the sins of the ancient Hebrews in the wilderness. Moses was indeed a "righteous" man (by imputation) due to his faith, but he was not inherently righteous. He was still a sinner, albeit a forgiven one. As it is written,

Eccl 7:20
20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
NASB

[PaceAdvantage]

You're playing dumb on purpose.

And I am not dumb like hcap, so I think I'm pretty much finished with this section of off-topic....for now....

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

You're playing dumb on purpose.

And I am not dumb like hcap, so I think I'm pretty much finished with this section of off-topic....for now....

But you do come empty as often as Hcap did, so what does that really make you? Did I not warn you that your knowledge of scripture wouldn't even cover the bottom of a thimble?

You still have no answers to my tough questions. Why don't you beg your new found hero rabbi Singer to come up with some, or get him to visit us over here so that I can engage him?