Another catastrophic Baffert Breakdown

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Tom

Amazing how much everyone knows about this when no scientigic evidence has been gathered yet, but obvos;y, Baffert drugged the horse, the track was not safe, and both CD and PIM should be immediately shut down due to unsafe tracks conditions. Let me know when the serious discussion starts.

Basically my way of thinking on this as well.

Just because you want to wait and see what additional digging might bring up before you hang the man for this, doesn't mean you automatically condone everything Baffert has done in the past.

But, it's the internet, and that means, everybody is rushing to see who can be the most outrageous the fastest.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by headhawg

I am sure glad that you have controlled your hate and ignorance for a fellow PA member, @barbaro123.

You and your 16 posts should go back into hiding again. Permanently.

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by Tom

Let me know when the serious discussion starts.

This thread may be too hopelessly frayed to serve as that vehicle, but I'll make a forlorn attempt to move it along.

Upthread, swift posted:

The horse was on the vets list for joint injections 14 days before the race = the horse was probably not sound but was run anyway.

Where is the evidence for this? Not saying he's wrong. I remembering seeing reference to Brad Cox's horses showing up on the Kentucky vet list prior to Kentucky Derby weekend because of joint injections, with them clearing 14 days just in time for that weekend.

Is this just standard practice for super trainers? Was Havnameltdown indeed injected?

[Tom]

So the horse was allowed by the vet to run.

[Inner Dirt]

They need to stop treating these horses like battered NFL players. A horse should not get injections that mask pain for the purpose of keeping them racing. A human can refuse a treatment that could effect their long term health. If a shot up leg joint gives out an NFL player just hits the turf and ends up needing surgery. If that happens to a horse he could end up dead along with his rider, and those around them.


That is the biased view of an animal lover. The horses die all the time statement is a bad argument.

[lex]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

They need to stop treating these horses like battered NFL players. A horse should not get injections that mask pain for the purpose of keeping them racing. A human can refuse a treatment that could effect their long term health. If a shot up leg joint gives out an NFL player just hits the turf and ends up needing surgery. If that happens to a horse he could end up dead along with his rider, and those around them.


That is the biased view of an animal lover. The horses die all the time statement is a bad argument.

Yup the horse can't tell you what's really going on with them. I don't claim to know anything about any of this stuff obviously but I'd like to be assured that horses aren't getting pasted together. I have no idea who the game gets there though.

More than 10 years ago I stood behind an owner at Saratoga harness as he went on and on to other owners and regulars there about how he entered his lame horse hoping to get him claimed and unloaded. Obviously something I've never forgotten.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

The horses die all the time statement is a bad argument.

It's not an argument.

It's a statement of fact.

And there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do to stop it.

So the whole "the world is coming to an end" every time a horse breaks down these days is absolutely destructive and pointless.

Every single era in horse racing has seen its share of superstar breakdowns...every single one...not to mention the countless non-superstars.

Whether it be from poor management, illegal or abusive substances, "bad steps," clipped heels, aggressive race-riding, natural heart attacks...you name it...

Only one or two of those you can actually control...but you're asking fallible humans to all of a sudden become perfect...but then you're left with nature and accidents...plus you'll never be able to convert fallible humans into perfection.

Why does stating the obvious automatically make me into some sort of horse death-enabler? (this question is for everyone, not just you)

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It's not an argument.

Why does stating the obvious automatically make me into some sort of horse death-enabler? (this question is for everyone, not just you)

It doesn't and I think most of us on the board walk the same line between enjoying the sport, handicapping, etc. and realizing horse deaths are inevitable with 1000 pound animals being asked to give maximum effort at 40 mph on "wheels" that are shockingly skinny.

You did allude to "illegal or abusive substances" - my question is whether joint injections (or other procedures) should be moved to that category and see whether we can keep the sport going without so much use of "the needle". Legallly administrered or otherwise. Joint injections or other legally administered substances.

Again, though - we don't know at this point what actually happened to Havenameltdown. He got slammed by the #2 at the start, e.g. May mean nothing - may have caused something. Let's see.

I have heard enough excuses out of Baffert to take everything he says with a huge grain of salt, and unfortunately have experience with a friend's horse who was joint injected multiple times and ended up breaking down on track like we saw yesterday.

[$w1fT]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

This thread may be too hopelessly frayed to serve as that vehicle, but I'll make a forlorn attempt to move it along.

Upthread, swift posted:

The horse was on the vets list for joint injections 14 days before the race = the horse was probably not sound but was run anyway.

Where is the evidence for this? Not saying he's wrong. I remembering seeing reference to Brad Cox's horses showing up on the Kentucky vet list prior to Kentucky Derby weekend because of joint injections, with them clearing 14 days just in time for that weekend.

Is this just standard practice for super trainers? Was Havnameltdown indeed injected?

It’s public knowledge. I read it last night. Look it up. Posters here like to think they are on a jury and need the poster to present evidence for them. A simple google search will find what you’re looking for.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It's not an argument.

It's a statement of fact.

And there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do to stop it.

The amount of deaths could be reduced, that is all I am looking for. Obviously running 40 MPH on those spindly legs, accidents and injuries are inevitable.

[iamt]

Originally Posted by $w1fT

It’s public knowledge. I read it last night. Look it up. Posters here like to think they are on a jury and need the poster to present evidence for them. A simple google search will find what you’re looking for.

I tried a simple Google search and got nothing. I tried a few other things and all I have managed is one poster on Twitter consistently commenting about it.

[classhandicapper]

I've seen stats on breakdowns at the track level and surface level, but if they don't already, they should be keeping stats that include every horse's entire vet record (drugs, treatments, surgeries etc..) , age and sex, number of career starts, trainer, entire workout record, PPs, surface (s) the horse raced on etc.. and breakdowns.

Everything is data driven these days, but I'm going to guess this industry doesn't have good enough data to find all the patterns that can then be addressed to reduce the number of occurrences.

I remember reading decades ago that working horses fast, long, and often eventually takes a toll on the horse. I've heard trainers say that also. Some of the most successful dirt trainers are known for working their horses fast. Maybe that's a great way to win races in the short term, but not such a great way train long term if you are trying to avoid injuries or horses breaking down prematurely.

There almost has to be some relationship between age and number of starts and a horse accumulating injuries, declining, and breaking down.

If the data was very clear to everyone in the industry and to the public/press, some ways to reduce injuries could be discussed and found.

I have to tell you though, I have centrist and right leaning friends that used to be avid horse racings fans that no longer think the existence of this sport is such a great idea. It's one thing when you are talking about PETA. It's another when you are talking about guys that used to avid horseplayers and fans thinking it's a mess.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I've seen stats on breakdowns at the track level and surface level, but if they don't already, they should be keeping stats that include every horse's entire vet record (drugs, treatments, surgeries etc..) , age and sex, number of career starts, trainer, entire workout record, PPs, surface (s) the horse raced on etc.. and breakdowns.

Everything is data driven these days, but I'm going to guess this industry doesn't have good enough data to find all the patterns that can then be addressed to reduce the number of occurrences.

I remember reading decades ago that working horses fast, long, and often eventually takes a toll on the horse. I've heard trainers say that also. Some of the most successful dirt trainers are known for working their horses fast. Maybe that's a great way to win races in the short term, but not such a great way train long term if you are trying to avoid injuries or horses breaking down prematurely.

There almost has to be some relationship between age and number of starts and a horse accumulating injuries, declining, and breaking down.

If the data was very clear to everyone in the industry and to the public/press, some ways to reduce injuries could be discussed and found.

I have to tell you though, I have centrist and right leaning friends that used to be avid horse racings fans that no longer think the existence of this sport is such a great idea. It's one thing when you are talking about PETA. It's another when you are talking about guys that used to avid horseplayers and fans thinking it's a mess.

I read a study some years ago that was done on horses who had catastrophic racing injuries. It was discovered that, in something like 80% of the cases, the final fatal injury had occurred exactly on the same spot of the limb where past trauma had already existed at a prior time. No matter how you slice it, this suggests that a prior injury existed which had not been given enough time to heal...and this is something that's hard to accept even if we are avid horseplayers.

[Inner Dirt]

I always wonder if retiring a horse at a young age not wanting to risk a decline protecting a stud fee is breeding infirmity into the blood lines. Look at Flightline, he raced 6 times in about a year and a half. I will be curious to see how his progeny will do.

[Inner Dirt]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I read a study some years ago that was done on horses who had catastrophic racing injuries. It was discovered that, in something like 80% of the cases, the final fatal injury had occurred exactly on the same spot of the limb where past trauma had already existed at a prior time. No matter how you slice it, this suggests that a prior injury existed which had not been given enough time to heal...and this is something that's hard to accept even if we are avid horseplayers.

I find that troubling news. Does anyone have a link to a study of fatal horse breakdowns by the decade? Not the total number, but compared to number of starts. The number should trend down, not up.