Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Eliminating the middleman was a serious reference to Judaism. Not that an expert on everything wouldn't be familiar with all religions.

However the inline regress of who created the creator remains sticking point for even experts on everything.

Please don't mention "intelligent design" as a reason GOD must EXIST.

There is no such sticking point. There is no regress with an eternal being, just as there wouldn't be any regress with an eternal universe. The nature of the insurmountable problem with the latter, however, is entirely different because that kind of model would violate two laws of logic. But no such problem exists with God, as he revealed himself in the scriptures through his prophets, apostles and Jesus. In short, scripture tells us that God is immutable. And the attribute of immutability is perfectly consistent with the essence of pure existence.

And to state the obvious (which is extremely necessary with you!) is that an eternal being needs no cause or creator, therefore regress isn't possible. Regress is only possible in an atheistic model of a finite universe --the kind of universe that requires an ultimate cause.

It appears that those ignorant, backwards, superstitious, knuckle-dragging Jewish neanderthals were a whole lot smarter than you can even imagine. They knew how to avoid infinite regress and they knew how to not violate any laws of logic when they "created" their eternal God.

Or maybe they just got lucky?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by hcap

What preceded the creator? If you ascribe infinity to a creator, isn't it as valid to skip directly to infinity, and leave out the human projected notion of a middle man?

That is the logical response.

That's why I say, whatever caused the physical universe is so far beyond our senses and understanding, it's almost a waste of time to argue about it. However, if we could grasp it, it would all fit together and make sense.

That does not mean it was God, but it could be,

[Light]

I'm not clear on this argument between Box and Hcap, but I do have an answer for the reason for existence itself. Love. That may seem too simplistic but just imagine you had only one day left to live. What was the meaning of your life? You will find the only things, people or places that meant anything to you had love in them. It is what made your life worth living. Certainly the angers and hatreds were not the reasons for living and made you wish at times you weren't alive.

So now the question is what is love and where did it come from? To me love is a self creating energy. It creates itself because there is a need for it because it is the key ingredient for existence to exist. There cannot be "no existence" without it's opposite.

Here is the answer to why existence exists

Lao Tzu said, when you say the word "good" you automatically create "evil". When you say the word "beautiful" you automatically create "ugliness". So it is that when you say there was at one point "non existence" you create "existence". And as I previously stated the self booting feature of existence is Love. You guys can take it from there and you can call "love " God" as I do or you can dismiss that. But just understand that you cannot have non existence without it's opposite twin, existence. Of course when one is enlightened one sees things as they are in totality, not fragmented into this or that. You cannot have one without the other or neither would be.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That is the logical response.

That's why I say, whatever caused the physical universe is so far beyond our senses and understanding, it's almost a waste of time to argue about it. However, if we could grasp it, it would all fit together and make sense.

That does not mean it was God, but it could be,

If it isn't God, then it must be the universe itself, which is illogical for the reasons stated previously.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm not clear on this argument between Box and Hcap, but I do have an answer for the reason for existence itself. Love. That may seem too simplistic but just imagine you had only one day left to live. What was the meaning of your life? You will find the only things, people or places that meant anything to you had love in them. It is what made your life worth living. Certainly the angers and hatreds were not the reasons for living and made you wish at times you weren't alive.

So now the question is what is love and where did it come from? To me love is a self creating energy. It creates itself because there is a need for it because it is the key ingredient for existence to exist. There cannot be "no existence" without it's opposite.

Here is the answer to why existence exists

Lao Tzu said, when you say the word "good" you automatically create "evil". When you say the word "beautiful" you automatically create "ugliness". So it is that when you say there was at one point "non existence" you create "existence". And as I previously stated the self booting feature of existence is Love. You guys can take it from there and you can call "love " God" as I do or you can dismiss that. But just understand that you cannot have non existence without it's opposite twin, existence. Of course when one is enlightened one sees things as they are in totality, not fragmented into this or that. You cannot have one without the other or neither would be.

For anything to create itself it must exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense and, therefore, violate the law of noncontradiction.

Also, Lao Tzu doesn't appear to have been a very clear thinker. When someone says the word "good", he doesn't create anything! Not a thing is created in the technical sense of this word. But when someone says "good" it presupposes the existence of evil. And this is very different from saying that just saying "good" creates "evil". The person who said "good" didn't create a thing! But he does presuppose the antithesis to good, which is evil..

Moreover, to return to love for a moment, if to say a thing presupposes its antithesis, then to say "love" presupposes" hate. This means that the existence of love is contingent on the existence of hate. Love, therefore, is merely a contingent thing. But this is not the case with God himself. God's existence is not contingent on anything. God simply exists because his very essence is pure existence, his existence being dependent upon nothing. If God's existence was contingent, then God would not be perfect, for his existence would necessarily rely on something outside of himself, which means that he lacks one or more attributes necessary for perfection. And since God would not be perfect, would he be worthy of our love, trust, adoration, worship, praise, reverence, thanksgiving and faithful service? In fact, if God is not perfect, would he not just be like one of us?

Finally, existence is not an entity. Existence is the totality of existing THINGS. It is also a sentient or living being. Existence is a state of living or actual existence independent of human consciousness. When we think of existence we always think in terms of the existence OF an ENTITY. Therefore, to say that "existence exists" is absurd. It is like saying that white is whiteness.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by babblingcar

It appears that those ignorant, backwards, superstitious, knuckle-dragging Jewish neanderthals were a whole lot smarter than you can even imagine. They knew how to avoid infinite regress and they knew how to not violate any laws of logic when they "created" their eternal God.

.....and the mean spirited fake bullshit religion you rode in on


And classhandicapper says the left criticize religious types!

[hcap]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

That is the logical response.

That's why I say, whatever caused the physical universe is so far beyond our senses and understanding, it's almost a waste of time to argue about it. However, if we could grasp it, it would all fit together and make sense.

That does not mean it was God, but it could be,

I agree.
The problem is the limitations of our usual state of mind when we attempt to "logically" answer things like infinity or eternity.

There is a long tradition of mysticism in all religions. Zen Buddhism particularly tries to awaken other ways to understand what western traditions call the divine. I believe the "mouthing" of words only, without acing upon the meaning of those words is a dead end. In Zen, practical methods like meditation quiet the ever chattering overly intellectual mind.
Silence does, comprise much of the life in a strict monastery, such as the Trappists

Zen .....
Finding a Piece of the Truth

One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, “A piece of truth.”

“Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?” his attendant asked. “No,” Mara replied. “Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it.”


The Other Side

One day a young Buddhist on his journey home came to the banks of a wide river. Staring hopelessly at the great obstacle in front of him, he pondered for hours on just how to cross such a wide barrier. Just as he was about to give up his pursuit to continue his journey he saw a great teacher on the other side of the river. The young Buddhist yells over to the teacher, “Oh wise one, can you tell me how to get to the other side of this river”?

The teacher ponders for a moment looks up and down the river and yells back, “My son, you are on the other side”.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Light

I'm not clear on this argument between Box and Hcap, but I do have an answer for the reason for existence itself. Love. That may seem too simplistic but just imagine you had only one day left to live. What was the meaning of your life? You will find the only things, people or places that meant anything to you had love in them. It is what made your life worth living. Certainly the angers and hatreds were not the reasons for living and made you wish at times you weren't alive.

My argument with him is aimed at his constant belittling of others and myself and his incessant holier-than-thou, exopert on everything loud ego.

Love is not that simplistic Light.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

And classhandicapper says the left criticize religious types!

It appears to me It's you who are off your tolerance meds. (You don't do untoward things to yourself with that middle finger, do you?)

And besides, I only echoed your bigoted sentiments about how you view primitive man and his religious superstitions. How do the Jews, in YOUR view of backward, ancient mankind differ from any other primitive tribe in the creation of their gods? But you see...in MY view of the ancient Jews, they were pretty darn smart for the two reasons I have previously stated.

Have a nice day, and do us all a favor and overdose on some extra-strength Tolerance meds, will ya?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I agree.'
The problem is the limitations of our usual state of mind when we attempt to "logically" answer things like infinity or eternity.

There is a long tradition of mysticism in all religions. Zen Buddhism particularly tries to awaken other ways to understand what western traditions call the divine. I believe the "mouthing" of words only, without acing upon the meaning of those words is a dead end. In Zen, practical methods like meditation quiet the ever chattering overly intellectual mind.
Silence does, comprise much of the life in a strict monastery, such as the Trappists

Zen .....
Finding a Piece of the Truth

One day Mara, the Evil One, was travelling through the villages of India with his attendants. he saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up on wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground in front of him. Mara’s attendant asked what that was and Mara replied, “A piece of truth.”

“Doesn’t this bother you when someone finds a piece of truth, O Evil One?” his attendant asked. “No,” Mara replied. “Right after this, they usually make a belief out of it.”

Oh yea...you mean like you did with entanglement theory and the Casimir Effect? You thought that quantum mechanics irrefutably proved that the LNC has become obsolete -- that science has DESTROYED the classical laws of logic. You found your little piece of "truth" and extrapolated from it a mountain of cow dung -- that you cling to your bosom and wrap around you like a security blanket until this very day.

The Other Side

One day a young Buddhist on his journey home came to the banks of a wide river. Staring hopelessly at the great obstacle in front of him, he pondered for hours on just how to cross such a wide barrier. Just as he was about to give up his pursuit to continue his journey he saw a great teacher on the other side of the river. The young Buddhist yells over to the teacher, “Oh wise one, can you tell me how to get to the other side of this river”?

The teacher ponders for a moment looks up and down the river and yells back, “My son, you are on the other side”.

Moral to this piece of "wisdom": Don't ever ask a "great teacher" of Buddhism for travel directions.

[boxcar]

And just to remind everyone: The Law of Causality (not be confused with the Law of Cause and Effect) basically states that all that has come into existence must have a cause.

Therefore, since God is eternal, having no beginning or end, timeless, everlasting, whose existence is continual without any intermission and of infinite duration, He does not logically require a cause (or a creator). There can be no infinite regression with an Uncaused Cause. The I AM simply IS. With such a Timeless Being there is no such thing as going back in time in an attempt to establish a cause for his existence.

[hcap]

Not only don't you understand humor or the heart, you are like a country bumpkin watching a stage production of Hamnlet, when after watching the gravedigger scene, where Hamlet woefully mourns..."Alas, poor Yorick! .....

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

You have only this to say describing Shakespeare's Hamlet to your friends.

"Prince Hamlet is depressed. He was been summoned home to Denmark from school in Germany to attend his father's funeral, he is shocked to find his mother Gertrude already remarried" And you conclude.......

"I think it's going to be a lifetime movie soon. Any landmarks in Denmark?

Where can I buy the Classic comic?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by hcap

I agree.
The problem is the limitations of our usual state of mind when we attempt to "logically" answer things like infinity or eternity.

This is what I find interesting.

There is a correlation between how I feel physically and mentally and whatever emotions the world around me is provoking.

When I am angry, frustrated, and feeling other negative emotions (even if justified by events) I feel lousy physically and mentally.

When I am full of positive emotions, doing positive things, etc.. I feel mentally sharp and great physically.

So there's something telling me I am better off with one path over the other, but I don't believe it's coming from my background. It's from within. I'm not sure exactly what that's saying about the universe, but it's saying something.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

This is what I find interesting.

There is a correlation between how I feel physically and mentally and whatever emotions the world around me is provoking.

When I am angry, frustrated, and feeling other negative emotions (even if justified by events) I feel lousy physically and mentally.

When I am full of positive emotions, doing positive things, etc.. I feel mentally sharp and great physically.

So there's something telling me I am better off with one path over the other, but I don't believe it's coming from my background. It's from within. I'm not sure exactly what that's saying about the universe, but it's saying something.

According to some spiritual teachings, there is an inner division between essence and personality. Essence is what we come into the world with, it includes conscience and other as of now hidden abilities. Personality is what we acquire through learning life and becomes how and what we present to others. A sort of shell surrounding essence.

Ego is sometimes used to describe personality, and there sometimes in "pop wisdom" there is a notion that ego must be banished or eliminated. I believe rather the trick is to coordinate the many parts of fractured personality or ego in order to unify the personality to listen and follow one's essence. The fractured personality occurs naturally during growth and "education" away from childhood.

This thought appears in many teachings.

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."...

Matthew 18:3

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Not only don't you understand humor or the heart, you are like a country bumpkin watching a stage production of Hamnlet, when after watching the gravedigger scene, where Hamlet woefully mourns..."Alas, poor Yorick! .....

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

You have only this to say describing Shakespeare's Hamlet to your friends.

"Prince Hamlet is depressed. He was been summoned home to Denmark from school in Germany to attend his father's funeral, he is shocked to find his mother Gertrude already remarried" And you conclude.......

"I think it's going to be a lifetime movie soon. Any landmarks in Denmark?

Where can I buy the Classic comic?

I was joking too. What part of my last post didn't you like: The part wherein I exposed your hypocrisy or the part where "great" Buddhist "teachers" make lousy travel guides?

You should go out on a street corner and beg for or borrow or steal a sense of humor. You're a typical liberal totally humor-deprived.