Why Learn Basic Programming Skills?

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

I do not see our conversation about Programming Languages to be limited to a handicapper writing his software; i think that we should view this topic in general, without having a specific business domain in mind, discussing the pros and cons of each approach.

Platform neutrality (among the other things that I mentioning above and many others that I did not) is certainly one of the most important aspects of successful software, as they affect evolution, interoperability and ultimately the life span of a specific project. This is important to the "handicapper" (as any other developer and computer use), for reasons like: reducing or eliminating third party software cost, migrating to another OS as the platform of choice, adopting a technology that is not available (or is difficult to use) on the current platform. Any way you are going to view it, following open standards and achieving platform neutrality is preferable to been limited to specific vendors and this is exactly the direction where the whole industry is heading to. Today’s development is based on standards like HTML5, CSS3 and javascript as opposed to the good old 90's when fat clients were the norm (see VB6, Powerbuilder, VC++, Access etc)...

Java, Java, and Java as the top three finishers. The only exception would be for apps that run 24/7, in which case the overhead of C++ explicit memory management is useful.

I admit a bias toward Oracle. Primarily because I react badly to the term "optimistic concurrency."

Python is a quick and easy first language for those with lots of time (for computing) and interested in implementation in areas other than computing (such as DNA mapping, bioinformatics, and such). For other uses, scripting languages take a big performance hit.

As for the future, I think the emphasis on cloud computing and mobile computing is limited. Microsoft's current path is going to go about as well as Ford's aluminum trucks. Again, that is a personal bias. I came from the fiberoptic side of the fence, where the notion of tossing a signal into the air is cause for alarm.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by traynor

Java, Java, and Java as the top three finishers. The only exception would be for apps that run 24/7, in which case the overhead of C++ explicit memory management is useful.

I admit a bias toward Oracle. Primarily because I react badly to the term "optimistic concurrency."

Python is a quick and easy first language for those with lots of time (for computing) and interested in implementation in areas other than computing (such as DNA mapping, bioinformatics, and such). For other uses, scripting languages take a big performance hit.

As for the future, I think the emphasis on cloud computing and mobile computing is limited. Microsoft's current path is going to go about as well as Ford's aluminum trucks. Again, that is a personal bias. I came from the fiberoptic side of the fence, where the notion of tossing a signal into the air is cause for alarm.

Java belongs in the same camp of C# and VB.net. Of course it has a huge user base but this does not make it attractive to me. I prefer working with dynamic and functional languages, since I find it easier to express algorithms and business logic... Clojure is great though...

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Java belongs in the same camp of C# and VB.net. Of course it has a huge user base but this does not make it attractive to me. I prefer working with dynamic and functional languages, since I find it easier to express algorithms and business logic... Clojure is great though...

Clojure is nice. So is Erlang. It depends what kind of programming (or development) one is doing.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by traynor

Clojure is nice. So is Erlang. It depends what kind of programming (or development) one is doing.

Still their user bases are not so large. The great thing about python, ruby and perl is that they have HUGE open source libraries, implementing any kind of solution you can think of and this is one of the most important reasons to use any of them..

[traynor]

An example of why programming langugages and platforms should be a business decision (rather than an IT decision) is the experience of Inkos. Project to implement SAP's ERP (enterprise resource planning) system. They were $25 million in when someone realized that none of their IT staff could handle it once up and running, and that it would require an endless amount of outside contractors (at $300/hr) to keep running. They dumped it, and swallowed the $25 million hit.

Trends in programming come and go. Business continues. The current emphasis on HTML, JavaScript, CSS and so on is all well and good. It was not too long ago that Microsoft expected the whole world to use XML and subscribe to Microsoft products, and IBM put its efforts into promoting Linux everywhere. (Anyone remember those tacky commercials of the little kid, supposedly representing Linux taking over the world of computing?)

Trends should not be automatically equated with value. Personal preferences should not be confused with good business decisions.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Still their user bases are not so large. The great thing about python, ruby and perl is that they have HUGE open source libraries, implementing any kind of solution you can think of and this is one of the most important reasons to use any of them..

Are you saying that Java lacks libraries?

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Still their user bases are not so large. The great thing about python, ruby and perl is that they have HUGE open source libraries, implementing any kind of solution you can think of and this is one of the most important reasons to use any of them..

"Java belongs in the same camp of C# and VB.net. Of course it has a huge user base but this does not make it attractive to me."

[DeltaLover]

I do think that selecting a programming language or a platform is a business decision. The final word when making this kind of calls belongs to the technical team and not to the higher managerial levels... Of course a start up is always going to be favour open source technologies (due to the associated cost) while large financial institutions, will lean towards proprietary platforms like .net and oracle..

As far as MS committing to XML, again it missed the train, as their managers were very slow to realize that SOAP and WSDL were inferior to REST and kept on pushing the wrong directions, an approach that resulted to the alienation of a large number of M$ based developers, who moved to other more modern platforms...

IBM, is still pushing linux, although when it comes to OS, apple mac is clearly the dominant and most vibrant force for the moment (at least among developers and computer professionals)....

Originally Posted by traynor

An example of why programming langugages and platforms should be a business decision (rather than an IT decision) is the experience of Inkos. Project to implement SAP's ERP (enterprise resource planning) system. They were $25 million in when someone realized that none of their IT staff could handle it once up and running, and that it would require an endless amount of outside contractors (at $300/hr) to keep running. They dumped it, and swallowed the $25 million hit.

Trends in programming come and go. Business continues. The current emphasis on HTML, JavaScript, CSS and so on is all well and good. It was not too long ago that Microsoft expected the whole world to use XML and subscribe to Microsoft products, and IBM put its efforts into promoting Linux everywhere. (Anyone remember those tacky commercials of the little kid, supposedly representing Linux taking over the world of computing?)

Trends should not be automatically equated with value. Personal preferences should not be confused with good business decisions.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by traynor

"Java belongs in the same camp of C# and VB.net. Of course it has a huge user base but this does not make it attractive to me."

The difference is that Java users are coming from the enterprise which traditionally is all closed and proprietary source while python, ruby etc have a completely different culture and huge OS repos. I see java as the COBOL of the 21st century and as such I try to stay clear.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

The difference is that Java users are coming from the enterprise which traditionally is all closed and proprietary source while python, ruby etc have a completely different culture and huge OS repos. I see java as the COBOL of the 21st century and as such I try to stay clear.

Just so. If one develops for paying customers, the best choices are Java, Java, and Java, in that order. If one is developing in one's spare time and intends to donate the results of that development to the world at large, for free, then Python, Ruby, etc. are good choices. It is not that I "like" Java or that I "prefer" Java. I can do anything that can be done in Java faster and better in VB--especially anything that involves GUis. Java pays better, and will continue to pay better for as long as I am interested in caring about it.

I have heard all the open-source, trend-of-the-future arguments before, especially from the 'nix geeks in various university classes--all of whom were firmly convinced that Python and PHP would take over the world. They did--if one considers "the world" to be kitchen table programmers and one-man "software development contractors." There are exceptions, of course, but I think anyone who avoids Microsoft technologies or Java technologies on philosophical grounds is skating on very thin ice. Philosophy is all well and good, but Microsoft and Java are where the money is. And where it will be.

[traynor]

I stand corrected. Python has taken a BIG jump recently.



Language Gartner 2014 Programming Language Index Rating

Java 1
JavaScript 2
Python 3
C 4
PHP 5
C++ 6
Ruby 7
C# 8
http://blogs.gartner.com/mark_driver...ndex-for-2014/

[MJC922]

When the goal is handicapping research and related data processing for personal use it's hard for me to understand the desire for anyone to concern themselves with .NET, Java, OOP. No matter what language you choose what we're all dealing with is a delimited file originating from Equibase, we bring it into something like a db or a spreadsheet, work with it by calling subroutines and generate some output that is hopefully more value-added than what was delivered. None of this necessarily needs forms, controls, UI etc and should be heavily automated IMO. It's far from commercial software development.

If you choose VBA you surely don't even need to download visual studio, just open up Access or Excel and press Alt+F11. Insert Module> Insert Procedure and you're on your way to building user-defined functions and automating tasks with subroutines.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by MJC922

When the goal is handicapping research and related data processing for personal use it's hard for me to understand the desire for anyone to concern themselves with .NET, Java, OOP. No matter what language you choose what we're all dealing with is a delimited file originating from Equibase, we bring it into something like a db or a spreadsheet, work with it by calling subroutines and generate some output that is hopefully more value-added than what was delivered. None of this necessarily needs forms, controls, UI etc and should be heavily automated IMO. It's far from commercial software development.

If you choose VBA you surely don't even need to download visual studio, just open up Access or Excel and press Alt+F11. Insert Module> Insert Procedure and you're on your way to building user-defined functions and automating tasks with subroutines.

If one has no questions, there is no need for seeking answers. If one is happy with the results one is getting, and results one has gotten, there is no need to change.

It is hard for me to understand why anyone would bother fiddling around with Access, Excel, or a computer handicapping app unless he or she was making a consistent profit by so doing. If not, it is little more than a boring substitute for video games.

If one has the skill to apply data mining strategies (beyond the simplistic, one-dimensional queries that most Access and Excel users believe are "mining the data") Access and Excel can be useful. I cannot understand why Access and Excel users do not take advantage of apps like RapidMiner. WEKA, or Anaconda3 to mine their data, rather than piddling around writing simplistic queries. Unless it is fear that their "results" will not hold up in the real world.

[DJofSD]

traynor, be happy they don't explore and exploit those tools. It means you have an edge.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by traynor

There are exceptions, of course, but I think anyone who avoids Microsoft technologies or Java technologies on philosophical grounds is skating on very thin ice. Philosophy is all well and good, but Microsoft and Java are where the money is. And where it will be.

By no means we do not avoid M$ or Java based on philosophical grounds but for very pragmatic and practical reasons. As I said before, yes, M$ and Java still have a large chunk of the market, but this is changing very fast. They are mainly used in large financial companies, who happen to have a huge investment on them (both in legacy code and employee knowledge capital), but even in this sector things are moving quickly, as I know at least two top 5 institutional banks that are currently using python as their main development platform).. when it comes to start-ups and web apps, M$ and java are far behind the curve: https://wiki.python.org/moin/OrganizationsUsingPython

Even from a strict "money" view (which is not always the first consideration for a developer to accept an offer), both M$ and Java are behind languages like python or C++... Usually the quality of a python, haskell or even C++ developer is better than its java or C# counterpart and this is directly reflected not only in the results of the work but in the paycheck as well...