Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Off Topic > Off Topic - Trading The Financial Markets


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 9 votes, 4.11 average.
Old 07-11-2018, 12:14 PM   #556
_______
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Washoe County, Nevada
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplayRandall View Post
You must have a great deal of faith in "whom" assigns the net asset value, unless you believe it's totally non-human driven.

"Whom" gives you the market value of all it’s holdings.....Trust factor these figs are legit

"Whom" gives you the number of shares outstanding......Trust factor these figs are accurate
This is a regulated industry. And it is non-human driven. There is a market price for a bond the same as there is a market price for an equity. Some of them may be thinly traded but whatever that last trade was is the value.

I think you might have a fundamental misunderstanding of what would happen to a company that misstated either the last trade or shares outstanding data.

I own Pimco, Doubleline, and Blackrock funds. And yes, I trust all of them to provide accurate data.
_______ is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-11-2018, 12:19 PM   #557
ReplayRandall
Buckle Up
 
ReplayRandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by _______ View Post
This is a regulated industry. And it is non-human driven. There is a market price for a bond the same as there is a market price for an equity. Some of them may be thinly traded but whatever that last trade was is the value.

I think you might have a fundamental misunderstanding of what would happen to a company that misstated either the last trade or shares outstanding data.

I own Pimco, Doubleline, and Blackrock funds. And yes, I trust all of them to provide accurate data.

There's no "fundamental misunderstanding" on my part in the slightest. You're a very trusting fellow.....I guess that's what I like about you.
ReplayRandall is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-11-2018, 12:31 PM   #558
_______
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Washoe County, Nevada
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplayRandall View Post
There's no "fundamental misunderstanding" on my part in the slightest. You're a very trusting fellow.....I guess that's what I like about you.
Can I ask why someone shouldn’t trust these numbers?

You do seem to be implying they may not be real. Do you have some basis for that belief?

Do you feel the same about the assets held by mutual funds and ETF’s possibly being misstated or is this only CEF’s that are suspect?

Will be away for a few hours but looking forward to hearing why I should be less trusting.
_______ is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-11-2018, 01:21 PM   #559
ReplayRandall
Buckle Up
 
ReplayRandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
CEF's, unlike ETFs, offer very limited transparency. At any time, fund investors may not be aware of the future strategies the fund managers will employ.

This in turn, leads to the problems of CEF's being highly leveraged. Many CEF's invest using leverage (debt) as a large part of the overall strategy, thus making these funds far more volatile.

CEF's also have management fees that are considerably higher than the fees that come with ETFs or other passive type investments. These fees can quickly build up against any investor gains.

In closing, you can only sell a CEF IF you can find a buyer, as there aren't enough reliable buyers out there when it comes time to sell...…

Simply put, My Money goes elsewhere where it's safer and easy to liquidate at a moments notice...Just my opinion and experience, your results may differ.
ReplayRandall is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-11-2018, 01:44 PM   #560
plainolebill
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posts: 1,621
For levered CEFs the fees cover the interest on the leverage loans as well as management fees so it's not as bad as it seems.

Not usually buy and hold material, the strategy is to buy at a discount and sell when it narrows or when your capital gains equal about one years distributions.

I don't have any CEFs at the moment because it is a lot of work watching them and getting in and out at the right time ,but some people have a lot of success with it. A good source of information is the Morningstar CEF discussion board.

FYI Dan Ivascyn chief investment officer at PIMCO is heavily invested in several fixed income CEFs he manages.
plainolebill is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 07-11-2018, 07:08 PM   #561
_______
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Washoe County, Nevada
Posts: 2,253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplayRandall View Post
CEF's, unlike ETFs, offer very limited transparency. At any time, fund investors may not be aware of the future strategies the fund managers will employ.

This in turn, leads to the problems of CEF's being highly leveraged. Many CEF's invest using leverage (debt) as a large part of the overall strategy, thus making these funds far more volatile.

CEF's also have management fees that are considerably higher than the fees that come with ETFs or other passive type investments. These fees can quickly build up against any investor gains.

In closing, you can only sell a CEF IF you can find a buyer, as there aren't enough reliable buyers out there when it comes time to sell...…

Simply put, My Money goes elsewhere where it's safer and easy to liquidate at a moments notice...Just my opinion and experience, your results may differ.
Fair enough. I’m not trying to talk you or anyone else into an investment they aren’t comfortable with. I will note that ETF’s and mutual funds also require a buyer and seller, not just CEF’s.

The scarcity of buyers drives the managers of ETF’s and mutual funds into liquidating assets at exactly the time they may want to be buying. The manager of a CEF shrugs his shoulder’s and looks for bargains since he doesn’t have to meet a demand for redemptions. The inability to sell a CEF at a reasonable price near NAV is actually a pretty good signal that you probably shouldn’t be selling it anyway.

@plainolbill: I understand CEF’s are excellent trading vehicles because of the obvious inefficiencies that occur when retail investors rush in and out. But I’m a long term holder of the bond funds I purchased. If you get a good entry point and are in it for the income generated, it doesn’t matter if you get a z score approaching +3 as recently happened wth one of my funds. I shrug my shoulders knowing there isn’t a great likelyhood the discount will narrow further but I’m not in it for capital gains (though they are really nice as a bonus).

Dan Ivascyn, Jeff Gundlach, and Larry Fink manage my bond portfolio. They charge a bit for it but it’s absolutely been worth it.
_______ is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-06-2018, 03:36 PM   #562
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 23,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
Half way in and still less than 2 cents



Amazing how the best stock in the world can go unnoticed for so long.
yousee all you need is a little patience.

just sold half my position and got more than a triple on it. gonna re enter if priced drifts lower.
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-07-2018, 12:36 PM   #563
FakeNameChanged
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by _______ View Post
Fair enough. I’m not trying to talk you or anyone else into an investment they aren’t comfortable with. I will note that ETF’s and mutual funds also require a buyer and seller, not just CEF’s.

The scarcity of buyers drives the managers of ETF’s and mutual funds into liquidating assets at exactly the time they may want to be buying. The manager of a CEF shrugs his shoulder’s and looks for bargains since he doesn’t have to meet a demand for redemptions. The inability to sell a CEF at a reasonable price near NAV is actually a pretty good signal that you probably shouldn’t be selling it anyway.

@plainolbill: I understand CEF’s are excellent trading vehicles because of the obvious inefficiencies that occur when retail investors rush in and out. But I’m a long term holder of the bond funds I purchased. If you get a good entry point and are in it for the income generated, it doesn’t matter if you get a z score approaching +3 as recently happened wth one of my funds. I shrug my shoulders knowing there isn’t a great likelyhood the discount will narrow further but I’m not in it for capital gains (though they are really nice as a bonus).

Dan Ivascyn, Jeff Gundlach, and Larry Fink manage my bond portfolio. They charge a bit for it but it’s absolutely been worth it.
Not so with Mutual Funds, they don't trade like stocks or ETF's. You are transacting directly with the fund. Transactions with funds happen after the market closes(buying or selling) when a new net asset value is set(price). When there's lots of redemptions, your selling prices usually plunges, similar in that respect to prices on stocks and ETF's. Closed end funds trade like stocks.
__________________
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.
FakeNameChanged is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-07-2018, 12:38 PM   #564
ReplayRandall
Buckle Up
 
ReplayRandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whosonfirst View Post
Not so with Mutual Funds, they don't trade like stocks or ETF's. You are transacting directly with the fund. Transactions with funds happen after the market closes(buying or selling) when a new net asset value is set(price). When there's lots of redemptions, your selling prices usually plunges, similar in that respect to prices on stocks and ETF's. Closed end funds trade like stocks.

Don, who is ______, won't be giving you a reply any time soon---->Banned
ReplayRandall is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-07-2018, 01:24 PM   #565
FakeNameChanged
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplayRandall View Post
Don, who is ______, won't be giving you a reply any time soon---->Banned
I gotta start keeping a scorecard for Off Topic.
__________________
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.
FakeNameChanged is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2018, 11:32 AM   #566
AltonKelsey
Veteran
 
AltonKelsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,831
Nice to see GOLD, well touted here, still a store of value and good in a crisis


must be all those Turks buying
AltonKelsey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-15-2018, 11:38 AM   #567
reckless
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: near Philadelphia
Posts: 4,560
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
Nice to see GOLD, well touted here, still a store of value and good in a crisis


must be all those Turks buying
Yep. Gold is down $16 or so as I type this.

And it probably will head even lower in the coming weeks as China, other Third World countries and EU currency all cratering as well.

These events strengthens the US dollar, which is the driving catalyst to lower gold prices in the future.

As least that is how I see it.
reckless is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-20-2018, 03:43 PM   #568
AltonKelsey
Veteran
 
AltonKelsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,831
Seems the big money is trading stuff like TSLA and AAPL this week, so tbsitw SFOR is tanking
AltonKelsey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-29-2018, 02:42 PM   #569
sour grapes
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 248
nasdaq 8000,bring out the party hats.The people calling for a crash from 4000 dont look too good.
sour grapes is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 08-29-2018, 11:09 PM   #570
horses4courses
Registered User
 
horses4courses's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 14,526
Too big to fail
horses4courses is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.